Transport Committee on Feb. 16th, 2021

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our guests.

Mr. Turnbull or Mr. Robinson, whomever, it doesn't matter, I have just a couple of comments. First of all, thank you for being with us today. I certainly thank you for the important work you do on behalf of all of us who fly and for the challenging work you do on a regular basis.

However, I'm often left wondering, when I read the reports and the information surrounding this MAX aircraft, how a minister or a committee like this one can provide meaningful oversight on issues that are so technical in nature.

[Nicholas Robinson]

I do truly appreciate that question.

I think we first have to look at the authority that we're provided with regard to aircraft certification. It goes back to a previous question of how we manage as a certifying authority to ensure that we are up to date and able to certify, review and examine continuously evolving and continuously more complex aircraft.

From an authority to certify or validate the aircraft perspective, the authority is exactly where we need it to be. It's with our globally recognized experts. These are leaders in the field of aircraft certification who are working in Canada's national aircraft certification group. Those are the people we need to continue to bring into our national aircraft certification group, continue to recruit and continue to use to make those decisions on whether or not an aircraft meets very clear regulations and standards.

In terms of the committee's perspective, we very much welcome the review you've undertaken with regard to looking at and examining the processes attributed to validation and certification, and our engagement with international partners. We would be interested in and very much welcome your assessment of how our process is working, the testimony from our industry with regard to that process and any recommendations you might make to improve that process.

I think it is extremely important—and I do wish the committee to consider it—that the certification, validation and review of these aircraft be left with our global leaders, our experts who are found within our national aircraft certification group.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Given those statements, I guess I have one final question.

Would you feel quite confident flying on this particular aircraft in the future?

[David Turnbull]

Yes.

[Nicholas Robinson]

I will repeat the message that now is not the time to fly because of our pandemic and COVID-19. I would encourage individuals to fly only if it's essential.

As soon as it is the time to fly, I can't wait to get on the 737 or another aircraft that our national aircraft certification team has approved and go somewhere warm.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

Mr. Rogers, you have about a minute and a half left.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

I have one final question. What does Transport Canada do to prevent regulatory capture?

I'm wondering specifically about employment opportunities or contracts that might be offered to TC experts after they leave government, after they have ingratiated themselves to industry.

[Nicholas Robinson]

I will be the first to say that we look for experts in the field who may be working with design and manufacture when we look to recruit individuals. There are certain areas within aircraft certification where the labour market is very small and very tight. We're always encouraging and hoping to bring the best into the national aircraft certification group. As part of that, some of the individuals we bring in absolutely have previous employment within our design and manufacture organizations.

What we do have, and it's across government, is a very clear process to make sure there is no conflict of interest. If an individual is coming from Bombardier—because they're a strong Canadian manufacturer—or another one of our strong Canadian manufacturers, we will ensure that they're not in a conflict of interest in a review of an aircraft, an assessment of an aircraft or in an airworthiness case of an aircraft.

There are strong checks and balances. There are systems within national aircraft certification, within Dave's team, to make sure that there isn't a single actor who could undermine a strong aircraft certification process because they've come from a particular industry partner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

Members, we're now going to move on to our third round. I had Mr. Kram there, but he's bumped up to the round before that, so I'm assuming Mr. Shipley is going to take the floor for five minutes on behalf of the Conservatives, followed by Ms. Jaczek for the Liberals for five minutes, and then Mr. Barsalou-Duval and Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes each.

Mr. Shipley, the floor is now yours.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll direct this to either Mr. Turnbull or Mr. Robinson, whoever wants to take this question. These MAX 8s were, for lack of a better term, “mothballed” for almost two years. Where were these planes actually stored for that period?

[David Turnbull]

A lot of them went to the desert in the U.S. southwest, which is a very special spot due to its low humidity. It's not conducive to corrosion. A lot of them are flown back to wherever they may operate.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you. That's great. It leads into my second question, which was going to be about corrosion. I understand, as with any vehicle, if you store your car—even in the winter, if you have a summer car—it can be very hard on it.

Was there any concern with bringing all these planes back into service, with corrosion and with sitting? I know we're dealing with the certification and the issues they had prior, but anything that sits around for two years.... Have they all been thoroughly tested? Are they all ready to go? Quite frankly, are some of them still mothballed or are they all up and running?

[David Turnbull]

Of course, some of them are probably still mothballed because of the pandemic. The demand is only growing, so obviously they are not all being put back into service at the same time. That is a gradual process, which is ongoing.

With respect to your question—it's a very good one—one of the required actions to be taken before the return to service of any particular aircraft is to follow a Boeing service bulletin—which was developed specifically to address your question—to consider the specific maintenance actions that should be undertaken on an aircraft that has been stored for such a period of time. I believe those back-to-service maintenance actions are customized, dependent upon where and how the aircraft was stored. It was definitely part of the process to make sure that was covered.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Turnbull. Could you just elaborate on that a little more?

I didn't quite catch that, quite frankly. The documentation of bringing the planes back—you said those are made by Boeing.

[David Turnbull]

Yes.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Do people also inspect and certify those plans?

[David Turnbull]

Yes.

Boeing has produced several service bulletins. All the design changes that were introduced were introduced via service bulletins produced by Boeing. Those service bulletins are the vehicles to convey the information to the airlines to either install modifications or, in the context of your question, to carry out specific maintenance actions.

In addition to that, in Transport Canada's case, the oversight of the airlines themselves is conducted primarily by our national operations branch, which oversees the airlines that actually fly the 737 MAX. There are three of them. The maintenance activities prior to re-entering services would have been overseen and checked by that other part of Transport Canada that has that as their mandate.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you for that.

You may not be able to answer this as fulsomely as you have the other ones, but obviously the pilots haven't been flying these planes either. With COVID also causing some problems getting pilots back in their seats, how has that worked out?

Are the pilots being retrained and recertified? How's that going?

[David Turnbull]

I have a similar answer. That was probably one of the biggest challenges faced by the airlines. I know that Air Canada—or was it WestJet, I can't remember. One of them had in excess of 400 pilots who have essentially been sitting dormant. It's a very daunting task to get them back up to speed.

One of the things that we did above and beyond the bare minimum was to issue an interim order, which mandated that those pilots go through that training. It was never a concern that they would not. It was literally a belts and braces approach to make sure that every single pilot who gets cleared to go back on the aircraft has gone through the now enhanced and highly emphasized training for these pilots. That was an activity that was undertaken by the airlines even before the release of our AD. The training material was available. The airlines were up working on training their pilots even before we were ready to return the aircraft to service. Part of that training is in a simulator. Part of that training is in the actual aircraft.

That was a very significant effort that was carried out by the airlines.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Do you have a quick question, Mr. Shipley?

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

It's very quick.

Actually, this was already asked. I believe it was by Mr. Rogers. If it wasn't, I apologize.

I had it written down here, and I have to ask. I'm not a nervous flyer. Obviously, I'm not doing any flying right now, but I do like to take many vacations with family. After being on this study, next time I get on a 737 MAX, it's obviously going to be in the back of my mind. How could it not be? I was going to ask Mr. Robinson and Mr. Turnbull, even though it's been answered, do you have any hesitation ever getting on a plane, 737 MAX, with your families and flying?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Not during a pandemic....

[David Turnbull]

Not for me.

[Nicholas Robinson]

None for me.

[Doug Shipley, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

That's good to hear. Thank you. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm getting on one, after the pandemic, Chair.