Transport Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2021

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Bain, do you have any advice for committee members on any changes, perhaps, or improvements or mechanisms the CIB should put in place or have in place to ensure the public interest is protected?

As you know, I was talking about how sophisticated P3 agreements are now compared to what they used to be. Do you have any advice on how we can make sure that taxpayers' interests are protected?

[Derron Bain]

Again, I think you have to recognize my earlier comment around the fact that the CIB itself is not ultimately responsible for the delivery of these projects, right? They're relying on their partners, whether they be provincial or municipal, for the actual procurement and delivery of the projects. Presumably, it's those entities that are ultimately responsible for the contracts and the project documents.

Having said that, I would say there are a lot of examples. Again, as you have alluded to, within Canada, we're now probably 20 years on from the Nova Scotia P3 schools. We've certainly advanced our thinking, our approaches and our contracts. That said, you could look to the Government of British Columbia today, which is ensuring that there are community benefit agreements and provisions included in their infrastructure contracts.

It's absolutely a matter of priority and interest in terms of what those protections are that you're seeking, but there certainly are mechanisms available. There are a lot of precedents for ensuring the public interest ultimately is protected through the delivery of these projects.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Bain.

Thank you, Mr. Fillmore.

We're now going to move on to our fourth round, starting off with the Conservatives for five minutes.

Mr. Scheer, the floor is yours.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much.

It's the second time I've heard a Liberal try to make that point. Just for the record, it's the current Liberal government that has seen billions of dollars lapse. I know they like to make accusations of cuts, but it's our party that has a record of delivering on infrastructure. The current government has allowed billions of dollars' worth of infrastructure spending to lapse—that means to not be spent. I think the Infrastructure Bank is the perfect example of that, because it was launched with $35 billion and has completed zero projects. I think this is the context in which this study is being conducted.

The study is supposed to get at the root of the problem. Why has this bank proven to be so ineffective, and what can we do advise the government? For any viewers watching this, for Canadians at home who are tuning into this, it's very important to understand this. From internal audits at the infrastructure department to the Parliamentary Budget Officer to—soon—an Auditor General's report, we see that it's the current programs that have been so incapable of getting money out the door and getting projects built.

I want to go back to something Mr. Penner has said repeatedly. In his opinion, are there ever examples of government wasting money?

[Dylan Penner]

I was saying that I think it gets back to community needs and accountability. It's not just about the financing, but about whether people in communities have recourse to the projects that affect their lives.

If you look at the transit example that was raised earlier, you can see that entire communities in the west have been abandoned with Greyhound and the Saskatchewan Transportation Corporation shutting down operations because, as they claimed, they were no longer profitable.

They've entirely lost access to those services, which is a critically important point. People need access to these services, and to have that, they need to be public.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I'm sure we can both agree that governments have limited resources.

Would you agree with that?

[Dylan Penner]

I think what the pandemic has made clear is that the federal government is in a position and has spent a fair amount on urgent needs, but what is partly—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

It's not infinite. I've checked, believe me. There's no money tree behind the Parliament Buildings that you can just shake every time you need some money.

Would you agree that there is a limit to the resources in any given fiscal year?

We can have a debate about what that limit might be, but it's not infinite.

[Dylan Penner]

Regardless, there is a question of what is a wise investment and what is not. The evidence is that P3s are not.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

My question though is this. Do you believe there are examples of government wasting money?

[Dylan Penner]

Well, I'm sure there are, the point being that if it's a public program, then governments can be held to account. However, there are far fewer mechanisms to do so with private corporations.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Well, I'm glad you agree. Listening to your testimony, I think you have this faith in government, that government is always and everywhere capable of doing anything better than anybody else. I think the record...if you look at various departments and if you look at Auditor General's reports, parliamentary budget reports and internal audits, there's a lot of things that government doesn't do very well. I'm glad we can agree that governments waste money.

Do you believe that government can provide inferior services?

Do you think all governments everywhere provide better services, that there are never any shortfalls in terms of what a government aims to deliver and the outcomes of that program?

[Dylan Penner]

Well, I think one good example of that is when the previous Conservative government cut protections for water across the country. That's just one example where—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Are you referring to the Navigable Waters Act?

[Dylan Penner]

Yes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Are you referring to the fact that in the Navigable Waters Act, there were all kinds of environmental issues that we ensured, when you are talking about navigable waters, referred to rivers that you could actually navigate? I do remember that debate where the Navigable Waters Act was applied to many different types of bodies of water. I have examples. If you ever come to the wonderful riding of Regina—Qu'Appelle, I can show you spring runoff creeks that were subject to the Navigable Waters Act where there was no ability to ever navigate those bodies of water. We made sure they were adequately and forcefully protected in terms of environmental and watershed regulations. Surely we can agree that if you can't actually navigate a body of water, it might not belong under the Navigable Waters Act.

[Dylan Penner]

I think it's a bit of an absurd claim that cutting protection to 99% of waterways in Canada is protecting—

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

It's not environmental protection. We're talking about navigation. We're talking about whether—say in one of the creeks that run through the Qu'Appelle Valley—if you can't navigate a barge or a vessel through it, that maybe the protections that should.... What we did do in terms of raising water quality standards and ensuring that municipalities were held to a higher account in terms of what they emitted into bodies of water.... That's where we focused our attention, making sure that the environmental regulations actually improved the quality of water and the protection of our watershed.

[Dylan Penner]

Perhaps if your definition of protecting them is protecting the rights of fossil fuel companies to pass pipelines through as many waterways as possible, then yes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

There aren't too many ocean-going tankers going through Qu'Appelle Valley.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Scheer. Thank you, Mr. Penner.

We're now going to move on to the Liberals for five minutes.

Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, before I get to the questions, allow me to quote Alberta Premier Jason Kenney, who called the bank's recent irrigation investment in Alberta:

...a great expression of confidence in the future of agriculture and indeed Alberta's future. It's the first project developed under the Canada Infrastructure Bank's recently announced $10 billion growth plan. We are proud to be the first project out of the gate.

Here's what else Premier Kenney said:

...this investment today is not just good for jobs in the economy and not just good for farmers and food processors, it's also good for the environment because we're going to be taking open-air irrigation canals and burying them in pipes that will improve water retention and conservation.

I just want to remind Mr. Scheer about the first project that Premier Jason Kenney is applauding.

The question I have for Mr. Bain is the following. The COVID-19 pandemic has impacted all sectors of the economy. In response, the Minister of Infrastructure created the COVID-19 resilience stream, which is already creating hundreds of jobs and supporting critical projects such as hospitals and schools, which are normally provincial in nature.

Mr. Bain, can you speak to ways in which the Canada Infrastructure Bank can help create even more well-paying union jobs during the economic recovery?

Mr. Penner can follow up with a comment afterwards, if he wishes.

[Derron Bain]

I think it's a very simple answer. Advance projects such that they are shovel-ready. As soon as they are shovel-ready that is how you are going to generate the jobs and employment that the infrastructure can support.

I think you're absolutely right, as we move forward and I think as I've said, if we're talking about a COVID-19 fund that's outside the CIB mandate, I think perhaps that can be delivered and result in those funds moving into the economy or moving to municipalities or provinces much quicker than the 10 or so major projects that we're talking about here with respect to the CIB. As I've spoken to earlier this afternoon, these projects, if advanced to the procurement and the delivery phase, will absolutely have a material impact on jobs and the economy and the productivity of our economy moving forward.

As we are today, you have the Canadian Building Trades Union as recently as today in The Globe and Mail indicating that their construction jobs are currently down about 10% compared to before COVID. That varies depending on what jurisdiction you're in. I think if you're in Alberta or Newfoundland you're obviously seeing the trades and construction work more adversely impacted as a result of the oil and gas downturn. It's maybe less so in some other jurisdictions, but, as of today, the building trades themselves are saying they are about 10% off pre-COVID employment.

[Dylan Penner]

I think a bigger part of the conversation as well in terms of building a just recovery is while there is an infrastructure deficit and there is a need for significant public infrastructure expansion, there is a serious operational crisis. If you look at things like public transit, for example, right now there's a need for at least $400 million per month that has been identified in terms of supporting operational expenses so that passengers and riders can safely social distance and so on in the middle of this pandemic. We need to be looking at that bigger picture as well.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Mr. Bain, you referenced a project that took place in Saskatchewan I believe with the building of 18 schools.

Was that a project that was focused on just raising capital to build these schools and then the province operated them or are these schools being operated by the private sector?