Transport Committee on June 10th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Good afternoon, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here on this lovely Thursday.

I'd like to welcome each and every one of you to meeting 37 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are all aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few points to follow.

First, members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting, and you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French audio. For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled by the proceedings and verification officer.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

With regard to the speaking list, as always the committee clerk and I will do the very best we can to maintain the order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on March 23, 2021, the committee will now begin its study of the government's response to the Ukraine International Airlines flight 752 tragedy.

I would first like to introduce and welcome our witnesses.

First, we have the Honourable Ralph Goodale. Ralph, welcome back. Ralph is the high commissioner for Canada in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and special adviser to the Prime Minister on PS752.

We also have with us, from the Canadian Coalition Against Terror, Aidan Fishman, legal counsel. From the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board, we have Kathleen Fox, chair; Natacha Van Themsche, director, air investigations; and Ewan Tasker, manager of international operations and major investigations.

From the Privy Council Office, we have Jeff Yaworski, forensic examination and assessment team.

These will be the witnesses between 3:30 and 4:45.

From 4:45 to 5:30, we have the Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims, with Hamed Esmaeilion, president and spokesperson; Amirali Alavi, representative; and Kourosh Doustshenas, representative. If I did not pronounce your names properly, I very much apologize.

With that, we going to start off with our witnesses.

We are going for five minutes each, because we have quite a few witnesses here, and I'm sure questions will be imminent.

We're now going to start off. I'll just note that when you see my hand go up, that means you're on your last minute.

With that, we have the Honourable Ralph Goodale. Ralph, welcome back. The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Ralph Goodale, High Commissioner for Canada in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Special Advisor to the Prime Minister on PS752, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you very much.

I join you today from Cornwall in the United Kingdom, where G7 leaders are gathering this weekend for their annual summit. Those activities notwithstanding, I am very pleased to participate in this important discussion about the horrific behaviour of Iran, which destroyed Ukraine International Airlines flight PS752 and killed so many innocent people, including so many with links to Canada.

Early last year, the Prime Minister asked me to assist with the government's response. I began that task on March 31, 2020, and it continues today alongside my duties as Canada's high commissioner in the United Kingdom.

I was asked to do three things. The first was to assist ministers and public servants in responding to the myriad needs of the grieving families of the victims. The second was to catalogue the best practices to be mobilized in response to tragedies like this, so such information is readily available to help deal with any future crises. The third was to make suggestions for how the world can best prevent these awful circumstances from happening again.

In the course of this work, I consulted repeatedly with the families. They are courageous, resourceful, insightful, unfailingly gracious, generous, knowledgeable and astute. I also listened to families who lost loved ones in other international air disasters, such as the bombing of Air India flight 182 and the Max 8 crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302.

In addition, I engaged with more than 15 departments and agencies of the government of Canada and a high-calibre roster of external experts such as Professors Payam Akhavan, Thomas Juneau and Craig Forcese, among others. I engaged with Dutch officials leading the Netherlands' lengthy and dogged response to the 2014 attack on Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over the Russian border.

The results of this work were published last December in my report entitled “Flight PS752: The Long Road to Transparency, Accountability and Justice”.

Let me summarize just a few main points.

First is the title. Why is it such a long road? The answer lies in the large, complex, multinational nature of this tragedy, the complicated maze of international conventions and practices that need to be navigated with precision, the limited roles of organizations like ICAO and the brutal intransigence of Iran. Among other things, I have recommended significant changes in the international legal framework to ensure that culpable nations are not put in charge of investigating disasters that they themselves have caused.

Second, in my view, Iran's management of this tragedy has been deliberately evasive and deceptive. For 72 hours at the outset, they denied any state or military involvement, when they knew that wasn't true. They admitted that the destruction of PS752 was the result of military interference, but then they refused to conduct a transparent and comprehensive investigation of that very military interference. They have also stonewalled dozens of critical questions that Canada and the world have asked.

Third, beyond being denied full and honest answers, the families have been treated abhorrently by Iran. In some cases, the personal effects of their loved ones have been vandalized, lost or stolen. Their funerals and memorials have been disrupted or distorted. They have been targets of intimidation and harassment. Such abuse is simply inexplicable and unforgivable.

Fourth is that, in my opinion, Iran's conduct was grossly incompetent. Witness their deeply flawed risk assessment, which claimed that everything was quite safe in Tehran's airspace that morning. They were reckless. Witness the outrageous decision to keep that airspace open despite their own very recent missile strikes on Iraq and their full expectation of retaliation. They showed wanton disregard for human life. Witness their failure to tell commercial airlines that hostilities were under way. Those airlines were actually under surveillance by IRGC missile operators with their fingers on the triggers.

Fifth, Iran has displayed an attitude of impunity, divorced from any remorse or responsibility for its deadly conduct. The Iranians were bulldozing the crash site within just a few hours. They delayed downloading the black boxes for months on end. Even now, they say that if they had that faulty risk assessment to do over again, they would come to the same conclusion. They produced a late and shambolic safety report without a shred of hard evidence, and their criminal investigation remains secret and hypothetical.

Yes, the families should be outraged, and so should the entire international community. We have not been told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and without that, no one can or should feel at all safe or secure in the still dangerous skies over Iran.

I thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Goodale.

We're now going to the Canadian Coalition Against Terror.

We have with us Mr. Aidan Fishman.

Mr. Fishman, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Aidan Fishman, Legal Counsel, Canadian Coalition Against Terror]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's an honour to testify today before this committee on behalf of the Canadian Coalition Against Terror, also known as C-CAT. C-CAT was founded by Canadian terror victims in 2004. It is a non-partisan research and policy group committed to seeking innovative legal and public policy strategies in the fight against terrorism and extremism.

On January 8, 2020, UIA flight PS752 was blown out of the sky by operatives of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, or the IRGC. One hundred and seventy-six people were murdered, including around 55 Canadian citizens and 138 people in total who were flying to Canada. It was the second-deadliest terror attack in history against Canadians, after only the Air India bombing of 1985. In fact, more Canadians died aboard PS752 than on 9/11.

Almost three years ago today, the House of Commons overwhelmingly adopted a motion calling on the Government of Canada to immediately designate the IRGC as a listed terrorist entity under the Criminal Code. On May 20 of this year, the Ontario Superior Court of Justice handed down a decision in which it found that the IRGC committed an intentional act of terrorism by shooting down UIA flight PS752.

After my remarks, Mr. Chair, being advised on the correct procedure, I would like to table a copy of that decision before this committee.

C-CAT stands firmly with the victims of this atrocity and their family members, and believes the best immediate and concrete way to stand in solidarity with them right now is to designate the IRGC as a terrorist entity, in line with the will of the House of Commons. In light of the facts I've outlined, we believe the onus is on anyone who opposes this move to justify their opposition. Nonetheless, I want to address some of the points that have been raised here and there in objection to this step.

First, it has been said by some that there is no need for this step, because the Quds Force, which is the external operations arm of the IRGC, is already listed as a terrorist entity. However, the House resolution that I mentioned explicitly called for the IRGC as a whole to be listed, and was passed after the Quds Force had already been listed. Clearly, the intent was to refer to the entire IRGC.

Second, the recent Ontario court judgment that I mentioned specifically finds that the IRGC operating in Iran, rather than specifically the Quds Force, was responsible for this act of terrorism. The government ought to honour that court decision.

Finally, in other cases, Canada has rightly rejected the artificial distinction between different wings of the same organization when it comes to other listed terrorist entities, such as Hamas and Hezbollah. There is no reason not to follow that precedent in this case as well.

[Technical difficulty—Editor] said that the IRGC cannot or should not be listed as a terrorist entity, because it is part of the armed forces of a state, namely Iran, but in reality this can't be a real barrier. As I said, the Quds Force is already listed, and the Quds Force is a part of the IRGC, meaning that it is also part of the state apparatus. Iran itself, in addition, is already designated as a state sponsor of terrorism, pursuant to the State Immunity Act.

Moreover, to give another example, Hamas was not removed as a designated terrorist entity when it won Palestinian elections in 2006 and became part of the Palestinian government. The same is true with respect to Hezbollah, which has been part of the Lebanese government for a number of years.

In fact, it would be completely illogical if being part of the state apparatus somehow prevented Canada from designating a group as a terrorist entity, because if that were true, it would actually create a perverse incentive for countries like Iran to incorporate terrorist proxies into the state apparatus, which is the opposite of what we should want.

In conclusion, it is C-CAT's position that none of the arguments against listing the IRGC as a terrorist group, consistent with the court ruling and consistent with the will of the House of Commons, hold any water. We believe the government should act and should designate the IRGC as a whole as a terrorist entity as soon as possible.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Fishman.

We're now going to move on to the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board, we'll start off with Kathleen Fox, the chair.

Ms. Fox, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Kathleen Fox, Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board]

Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I will be the only one speaking for the TSB during the opening remarks.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to appear today to explain the role of the TSB in Iran's safety investigation into the downing of Ukraine International Airlines flight 752.

Since the morning of this tragic event that killed so many Canadians and others with ties to Canada, we have been fully engaged in doing as much as possible to find out what happened, why it happened, and what needs to change to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

In the case of international safety investigations, the ICAO's annex 13 prescribes the roles of participating countries, including which state has the right to lead the investigation, and which other states may participate and to what extent. It should be noted that a safety investigation is not intended to attribute blame or determine civil or criminal liability.

From the beginning, Iran offered the TSB more access to its investigation activities than we were technically entitled to, albeit less than what we asked for. For example, two TSB investigators, one of whom is with us here today, spent six days in Tehran following the crash.

In July of last year, our expert and a Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB) flight recorder specialist attended the readout of the aircraft's flight recorders in Paris.

Also, in early February of this year, Ukraine invited us to provide technical assistance, giving us access to the draft investigation report for review and comments.

Throughout this process, we have specifically and repeatedly asked Iran's Aircraft Accident Investigation Board to answer three important questions.

First, what was the sequence of events, including the technical, human and organizational factors, that led to the missiles being fired that brought down PS752?

Second, why was Iran's airspace kept open during a period of heightened military alert?

Finally, why did civilian airlines continue to operate in Iran's airspace in the hours following the launch of missiles into Iraq?

Last March we shared our independent perspective publicly on how these three questions were addressed in the final report.

Iran concluded that PS752 was shot down because an air defence unit mistook the Boeing 737 as a threat, and claimed that this misidentification occurred because of a misalignment of the missile launcher's radar. However, Iran has provided no evidence to date to support this scenario.

As to why the airspace remained open, Iran generally explained the risk assessment process and limited mitigations that its civilian authorities took in coordination with the military following their launch of missiles into Iraq. However, Iran did not completely close its airspace to civilian aircraft.

Finally, Iran did not publish any notices, as recommended by ICAO, to warn aircraft operators of the hazards associated with Iran's state of heightened military alert until after PS752 was shot down.

Ukraine International Airlines was not the only airline to continue operating after Iran launched missiles against Iraq. Eight other aircraft departed Tehran before the shoot-down of PS752.

We consider that Iran's final investigation report raises more questions than it answers. The report does not explain any of the underlying factors behind why the missiles were launched at PS752, the stated cause of this tragedy.

In short, the report says what happened, but doesn't address the why.

We know this has been very difficult for the families, and in the end, no safety investigation report can ever bring back those who were lost.

Much concern has been expressed about the international protocols that govern these very unique types of safety investigations involving military activities, and specifically the issue of the state of occurrence investigating itself.

Now that Iran's safety investigation has concluded, the TSB has begun acting on its commitment to advocate for a review of the provisions of ICAO annex 13, so that families and the public can have confidence in the findings and recommendations from these very unique investigations.

Last month we submitted a working paper to the ICAO accident investigation group panel, calling for the examination of conflict of interest situations following an event where the state is directly involved in the downing of a civilian aircraft, and for the consideration of how the ICAO standards, recommended practices or guidance may be improved to reinforce the independence of future investigations and improve their integrity, transparency and credibility.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We'd be pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

We're now going to move on to the Privy Council Office, with Mr. Jeff Yaworski, forensic examination and assessment team.

Jeff, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jeff Yaworski, Forensic Examination and Assessment Team, Privy Council Office]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to support your study of the downing of flight PS752.

In October 2020, the Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, then the Minister of Foreign Affairs, announced the formation of a Canadian forensic examination and assessment team—the forensic team. I am honoured to be leading such important work. Our task is to uncover how and why Ukraine International Airlines flight 752 was shot down by Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps near Tehran on January 8, 2020.

Iran's account of events has consistently lacked transparency, credibility and completeness. Significant questions remain surrounding the circumstances and causes of the tragedy.

The families of the victims of flight PS752 are rightly skeptical of Iran's intentions and actions. Iran's lack of transparency is deeply troubling. Its official account of events is dishonest, misleading and superficial, and deliberately ignores key factors. Iran refuses to provide answers to key questions.

The families who lost loved ones to this terrible tragedy deserve answers to these many unanswered questions. It is my hope that our work will help in this regard.

I report to Vincent Rigby, the national security and intelligence adviser to the Prime Minister. Since its creation, the forensic team has been hard at work to examine, organize and analyze all available information, evidence and intelligence about the flight PS752 disaster and advise the government on its credibility and probative value.

The forensic team was tasked with preparing an unclassified report on the circumstances and causes of the shoot-down. Once released, it will represent our best assessment of the tragedy, based on all information, evidence and intelligence available to the Government of Canada.

Thankfully, it has been a whole-of-government effort. Dedicated representatives from all relevant Government of Canada departments and agencies have supported us. The work is complicated and sensitive. Sifting through mountains of data, working with our allies and declassifying intelligence where possible, while protecting sources, has proven to be a time-consuming and labour-intensive undertaking. That said, the families and loved ones of the victims have always been central to our efforts, and we owe it to them to get it right.

Our report will not, however, answer all outstanding questions. Only Iran has full access to the evidence, the crash site, witnesses and those ultimately responsible. It therefore remains incumbent upon Iran to provide a full and credible accounting of the events, so that the world may finally know the truth about what happened to PS752.

While we have not been able to release our report yet, I will outline what I can on its development, in particular as it relates to the victims' families.

I met with the families very early in my mandate and started an important dialogue. We also set up a dedicated email address for families to use to provide investigative leads that they felt were significant. We have since received information of value to our investigative efforts.

The Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims also set up its own fact-finding committee, which has provided investigative leads to the forensic team, including suggestions on the surface-to-air missile system and its operator, as well as information regarding other flights. We thoroughly investigated all of the material provided and sought to corroborate it with the expansive body of information available to the Canadian government. The forensic team also took great efforts to validate and answer questions from the families wherever possible.

I recognize that the gathering of this information by the families came with risks, especially given the actions taken by Iran. Their efforts are truly appreciated, and I want to use this opportunity to thank the families for their contributions.

When meeting with the victims' families, I committed to giving them access to the full report before it is made public. Because of this, I will not be able to answer any of the committee's questions on our key findings or any of its content. To do so would be to betray the trust we have developed. I appreciate your understanding of my predicament.

I would like to close by expressing my deepest sympathies to the families and loved ones of the victims of flight PS752. It is my hope that our work will help in some little way on their difficult journey to reconciling their unimaginable grief. The lives lost and the potential stolen of the 55 Canadians, 30 permanent residents and the other passengers and crew of PS752—176 victims in total—should never be forgotten.

Thank you.

I'd now be happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Mr. Yaworski.

Members, I will just remind you that this panel is from 3:30 to 4:45, and the next panel, with the Association of Families of Flight PS752 Victims, will begin at 4:45 and end at 5:30.

With that, we're going to go to our questioners, and starting us off for the Conservatives is Ms. Kusie.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, High Commissioner Goodale. It's very nice to see you again. As someone who served in the Canadian foreign service for close to 15 years, I hope to follow your path of an expedited head of mission appointment politically one day. It's very lovely to see you. Congratulations on that. Please say hi to Sean Blane, who was my contemporary in the early 2000s. As well, on a personal note, I'll say please say hi to Art Riel, our mutual family friend.

High Commissioner Goodale, on June 12, 2018, when you were Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, you voted in favour of a motion in the House of Commons that called on the government to immediately designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a listed terrorist entity under the Criminal Code of Canada. Do you still support listing the IRGC as a terrorist entity in Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Goodale.

[Ralph Goodale]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Kusie.

I will say hello to both of those folks, and I know both of us are thinking very fondly of Art Riel in his illness.

The House of Commons has made clear what its opinion is in this matter. The government has the ultimate responsibility for deciding when and how to proceed with sanctions. As Mr. Fishman has mentioned, there have been sanction measures launched against various elements of the IRGC or surrogate organizations, partly under the Criminal Code, partly under the United Nations Act, and partly under the Special Economic Measures Act. There is also the new legislation that potentially could be used in appropriate circumstances, in the form of the Magnitsky type of sanctions that have been proposed. The government will have to make that decision.

I would just make two points about some factors that will go into that decision.

First of all, you need to be absolutely sure of your legal ground so you don't set up an easy legal challenge, which would be a propaganda victory for the other side. There are legal arguments affecting the use of certain provisions in the law. It would be, I think, incumbent on the government to weigh all of the arguments, including what we've heard this afternoon from Mr. Fishman, taking into account all of the pros and cons in making sure you're not giving the other side an easy propaganda win.

Second, when implementing sanctions, it is prudent, I think, to try very hard to act in concert with other nations so that it's not Canada acting alone, as symbolically important as that could be, but so that we have a group of countries acting together in concert to make this an international indictment and not just a unilateral indictment.

I think all of that is important, but I hear your point. Parliament has expressed its opinion. The government will need to decide.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, High Commissioner.

You mentioned Mr. Fishman, who I'll go to next.

Mr. Fishman, one of the government's main initiatives in response to the downing of PS752 was the safer skies initiative, which of course looks at how to prevent civil aviation accidents in the future in conflict zones. Do you believe that the safer skies initiative addresses prevention strategies, so that incidents such as PS752 do not occur again?

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Mr. Fishman.

[Aidan Fishman]

It's an excellent question.

Certainly, I think all of us, including C-CAT, are in favour of any initiative to make the sky safer for civilian aircraft in times of conflict. The reality is that, as the Ontario Superior Court has now found based on various reports, all indications really are that this was not an accident. It was not a case of not having the right guidelines in place.

The truth really is that if there were any viable arguments or any viable evidence that this disaster was the result of human error or technological malfunction, Iran would have all the interest in the world in proving that to us, in proving that to the international community in a transparent manner.

At this point, all indications are that the shoot-down was intentional and, as much as it's great to try to prevent accidents in the future, this wasn't an accident, and C-CAT's position is that Canada should respond accordingly.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Fishman.

Thank you, Chair.

What actions or initiatives does the Government of Canada need to take to prevent tragedies like PS752 from happening in the future?

[Aidan Fishman]

The honourable high commissioner mentioned at the beginning of his remarks the potential of Magnitsky sanctions. That's another measure that could be used in this case to hold some of the individual officials involved with this accountable, and it's something that C-CAT certainly supports.

The issue with the Magnitsky sanctions targeting individuals is that, even in a dictatorial regime like the one in Iran, the faces and the positions change. Ultimately, even if you hold specific people responsible, you're not holding the broader system and the broader entity that caused the deaths responsible.

That's why it's ultimately our position that the IRGC should be designated a terrorist entity. I acknowledge, as the honourable high commissioner said, that the government clearly has to weigh the pros and the cons, but at this point, the pros of listing them are pretty clear, and there seems to be a very small and quickly vanishing list of cons.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you, Ms. Kusie.

We're now going to move on to the Liberals and Mr. Ehsassi.

Mr. Ehsassi, you have the floor for six minutes. Go ahead.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to everyone who's here to testify. I know it has been a difficult year, but certainly everyone who is here has worked very, very hard to hold Iran to account.

In particular, I want to welcome back to Parliament the Honourable Ralph Goodale. It's great to see you, Mr. High Commissioner.

Now I will start off with Ms. Fox.

Ms. Fox, as you know, one of your officials arrived in Tehran within days of this terrible tragedy. In your opinion, was your official provided full access to do investigative work while he was on the ground in Tehran?

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to ask Mr. Tasker to take that question, because he was the one who went to Tehran and can speak directly to the matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Vance Badawey]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Tasker.

[Ewan Tasker, Manager, International Operations and Major Investigations, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board]

Yes, I was one of the two investigators who arrived in Iran in those early days.

As Ms. Fox mentioned before, due to the nature of Canada's involvement in that and the expert status, I was aware of what's called the documented limitations there would be to my involvement. However, obviously from the moment I arrived, I was pressing for more access, and I was provided with access that exceeded the minimum, so we did visit the site. We examined the wreckage and photographed it for several days. We examined extra data and were part of group meetings while we were there.

We were provided with additional information. It wasn't to the extent that I was requesting. Of course, I requested further and further, but it was limited—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Fox, as we heard from the high commissioner, I think it's fair to say that the manner in which Iran has acted has been horrific; it's been brutal. I understand Canada asked for expert status so we could be more active in this investigation. Is it correct that we officially requested that from the Iranian government?

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Chair, to be clear, we asked for the higher status of accredited representative, which provides us with more opportunity to contribute to the investigation. That was done by me in writing on more than one occasion. It was done multiple times by Mr. Tasker, who was in direct contact with the Iranian investigator in charge, and I know that other levels of government, including the diplomatic level, also made such requests. Iran never formally told us no, but they never gave us the higher status.