Transport Committee on Sept. 19th, 2024

[Mario Péloquin]

I'll ask Madam Toporowski to answer.

[Rita Toporowski]

When there is a disruption, the initial call goes to our operations control centre. They assemble the right team of people who are involved in it, be it from a police perspective, the railway operations perspective or the customer experience perspective, in order to actually solve the problem.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Why did it take so long for some action to be taken? If you're saying that certain protocols were followed and the right people were advised, why did it take so long, close to six hours, before some action occurred? You have a control centre. What did the control centre do? What is established at that point?

I know this is going to come out from your protocols, but we'd like to hear. Do you have a crisis operations centre that takes place right away?

[Rita Toporowski]

The operations control centre receives the information and, based on the type of incident, triages. It depends on who is involved in it and what needs to be happening to solve the problem. This particular—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I'm sorry, but we're already over time. Perhaps you can finish that the next time Mr. Iacono has the floor or when I pass the floor over to Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

So far, much has been said about the infamous delay of train 622. A 10‑hour delay is indeed dramatic and striking. However, two other trains were delayed. Train 26 was delayed by one hour and 25 minutes. You could basically say that this is a normal occurrence. Meanwhile, train 24 was delayed by five hours and 45 minutes. According to media reports, the people on board train 24 received only a bag of pretzels and a bottle of water during this time.

Do you find this normal? First, is this a proven fact? If so, how come? Isn't there a protocol for serving people a meal after a certain amount of time? I think that five hours and 45 minutes is a long time to wait when all you get is a bag of pretzels.

[Mario Péloquin]

I'll let Ms. Toporowski answer the question.

[Rita Toporowski]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

On all our trains, the minute there is a delay, we have a protocol in terms of continuing with other service so that it's accessible to everybody, be it business class or economy class. After 45 minutes, we provide protein bars, pretzels and/or cookies, which we have as emergency snacks on board. Every 45 minutes afterwards, we do the same thing to replenish, along with water. That's what the protocol was for trains 24 and 26, given the delays that they had. That was adhered to.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I gather that no meals were served on train 24, but bags of pretzels were distributed every 45 minutes. Is that right?

[Rita Toporowski]

That's including the existing service that was currently on the train, which continued to be offered during the delay.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Personally, I find that odd. However, it's your decision.

Suppose that it's 1 p.m. and the train is five hours and 45 minutes late. This takes us to 6:45 p.m. Personally, if I had to eat a few bags of pretzels during that time, I would find it difficult. It seems that the situation can be tricky for people whose health differs from my own, or who must adhere to a more restrictive diet. That said, you be the judge.

I have only 20 seconds left. If you don't mind, Mr. Chair, I'll use this time later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is now yours. You have two and a half minutes, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the similarities between what happened in December 2022 and what happened recently in August was that it was a holiday weekend. They both occurred on holiday weekends. I'm wondering whether the availability of staff on a holiday weekend had any impact on Via Rail's response.

[Mario Péloquin]

Of course we're aware that during a holiday weekend, people do have a tendency to take a holiday weekend, but our staff complement is not reduced. The operations control centre is functioning as usual. Of course, on board trains and so on, they function as usual. For the people who are involved in the operation of the railway, there's really no difference.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I know that in this situation, you sent a train from Ottawa that was eventually able to tow the broken-down train. In talking to folks who are familiar with the European rail system, in the U.K. they actually station surplus locomotives along the rail line at certain intervals specifically for that purpose, as rescue locomotives. Is that an option that Canada should look at, particularly for the corridor, where there's a higher frequency of traffic?

[Mario Péloquin]

We operate a very different type of system in North America, in Canada, than you would see anywhere in Europe. We don't have a supplement of locomotives that we could store all over the country in case of an emergency. We use the majority of the rolling stock that we have every day.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

In this case, CN Rail has freight trains running on the same tracks. I've discussed with your team the potential for CN to provide assistance in a situation like this. In a maritime environment, there's actually a legal requirement to go to the aid of mariners who are in distress. Should Transport Canada look at a similar regulatory framework? I ask this knowing that CN are often co-operative and want to help get you out of the way because they need to get by, but should there be a more formal regulatory requirement for other rail users to come to the assistance of broken-down trains?

[Mario Péloquin]

I can tell you that over the 150 years or so that the railways have been operating in Canada, there's never been an issue whereby a railroad did not offer assistance when another railroad had a problem, no matter what the branding was on the side of the locomotive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Muys, the floor is yours. You have five minutes, sir.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to direct my questions to you, Ms. Toporowski. We had you here in January 2023, after we had the first incident in December 2022 of the train that was stopped for 14 hours near Cobourg. I want to delve a bit further and probably get a bit granular on the issue of the lack of food and water.

While we've heard here that maybe that was just a slight blip, that certainly contrasts with what we've heard from passengers in stories in the media. We're going to have passengers here before this committee as well, so I'm sure we'll hear some direct accounts.

I want to read back a couple of sentences from what you said when I asked that question about protocols for food and water back on January 23, 2023. You said the following:

It's based on the number of passengers, but over and above that, we add x per cent of the number of meals, extra snacks, extra drinks and so forth. In addition to that, because of our experience over many years, we have dried emergency snacks in case of an emergency event when there's an unexpected delay. In addition to that, we also board additional cases of water.

Given that, I'm wondering what the percentage was in December 2022 and what the percentage was in August 2024. What does it need to be? It sounds like it's not enough.

[Rita Toporowski]

Thank you for the question, MP Muys. I can provide the information regarding the ratios back in 2022. For the current ratios, I don't have them currently available to share with you right now.

The emergency snacks were available. There were three different types made available. The difference is the way in which we handed them out. There was food on board the train, which we actually depleted completely as we continued service, and then whatever was left we gave out as well. There was also pizza that was ordered and delivered. That's a difference as well. We tried to make it available. The minute we knew that we were running out of food and were making a point of trying to determine where we could move that train to that would be safe, we called ahead to a pizza company and basically had them deliver to the train in Laurier, so that we could offer more food when we were able to get to that location.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

To Mr. Péloquin, in terms of the discussion here, being contrite and apologies are one thing, but what is the plan to restore the public trust? If you're a regular passenger of VIA, or even the general public, this is now the second time, and it's three strikes, you're out. What is the plan to restore that public trust?

[Mario Péloquin]

I want to start by saying that, really, this is an isolated incident, because we have 20,000 train starts every year. The majority of those are to the satisfaction of the clients who travel by train, and those customers keep coming back on our trains. I wouldn't say that the confidence of the travelling public is not there.

Of course, this event is unacceptable. Although isolated, it's something that we are addressing very seriously, and we want to make sure it does not happen again.

We're taking measures. We talked about supplies of food and supplies of water, but if the measures we've taken now to make sure this does not happen mean that it doesn't happen, then the supplies of additional food and so on become moot at that point.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

You talked about the revision of the communications protocols with Transport Canada. Maybe you can get into a bit more detail as to what has changed since December 2022. I know the investigation is ongoing, but what would you anticipate needs to change further?

[Mario Péloquin]

The official protocol to notify the situation centre at Transport Canada is that the operations control centre is to notify Transport Canada if there's an event that is not usual: significant train delays, collisions, incidents, accidents and so on. I have discussed with the deputy minister that I would personally advise him, and we have either myself or another colleague advise the office of the minister if there is any situation that is abnormal. That is above and beyond what we had agreed to before, a few years ago.