Transport Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 129 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Before we begin the meeting, I want to remind all in-person participants to read the best practices guidelines on the cards that have been distributed on the tables. These measures are in place to protect the health and safety of all participants, including, of course, our interpreters.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Friday, September 6, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of the passenger rail service and Via Rail Canada incident of August 31, 2024.

I'd like to begin by welcoming our witnesses.

As an individual, in person, we have Mr. Cédryk Coderre, who was a passenger on that train. Welcome to you, sir.

Joining us virtually from Unifor, we have Mr. Joel Kennedy, who is the director of the rail sector, as well as Jennifer Murray, who is the director of the Atlantic region.

We'll begin with opening remarks. For that, I'll turn it over to you, Mr. Coderre. You have five minutes.

[Cédryk Coderre, Passenger, As an Individual]

Thank you, Chair and members of this committee.

My name is Cédryk Coderre. I was a passenger on train 622. I was in car number 2. This is my recollection of what happened.

When the train first stopped, we were told that this was a mechanical issue. The first stop lasted, I would say, about an hour, and then we heard an announcement that they had fixed the issue and we would be able to move again, but at a slower pace. We started moving for, I would say, about 30 minutes, and then we stopped again. They made another announcement about this, saying that there was another mechanical issue.

The first time, the staff provided us drinks and pretzels. Unfortunately, after we stopped again, I remember that the staff told us that if we needed anything, we could go to the galley, so I went there. We got chocolate and alcohol. I asked if they had anything else other than pretzels. They told us there were no more cookies or anything else. I would say that was about three hours into the train ride.

We received pretty frequent communication about what was going on. Eventually, we were told that train 24 was coming to the rescue. They were supposed to eventually push us to the station. At the time I was browsing the subreddit of Via Rail. There was a passenger actually on that train who had recorded what the train conductor had said. It sounded like it was his first time doing this, which was a bit worrying to me.

Later on, that really didn't end up working, so they decided to pull us to the side track to let the freight train pass.

While they were trying to connect the train, the power went out pretty frequently, which meant that the bathrooms did not work. People still went in there, but that got pretty smelly at one point.

Eventually, one of the updates we got was that they currently had no plans and they were trying to come up with one. In my opinion, that's pretty worrying when you have to go somewhere and you're being told that they have no plan.

Despite this, the staff in our car were pretty awesome. They kept coming through with the water, the pretzels and the chocolate whenever we needed it. About an hour or so later, the passengers in my car started to feel a bit restless, I'd say. Some of them were trying to look into getting an Uber out of there. Some were looking at the emergency exit.

There were rumours that there had been a fight on car 1. I'm not sure if it was related to the video that some of you might have seen in the media, but the police eventually came in. They escorted one guy off with his scooter.

I do remember catching the discussion of some staff members and some of the passengers. It sounded like the staff had it rough with some of the passengers in the other cars.

About an hour later, the staff eventually disappeared from our car for about 30 minutes. There was nobody to be found. Personally, I assumed that they had a meeting with some of the other staff in a different car, so it didn't really bother me.

Train 26 eventually came by, and the firefighters came on board and started securing the area to eventually transfer us to train 26. At that time, we also got pizzas. They were pretty generous with pizzas in my car. I think I got four slices, so that was good.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Cédryk Coderre]

Yes, we were quite hungry.

[An hon. member]

That's more than a snack.

[Cédryk Coderre]

Yes, it was a lot better than the pretzels.

We eventually got transferred to train 26. I saw that some of the passengers had to stand up because there were not enough seats on train 26. Before we got on train 26, I remember one of the staff members came to our car and said that this was the last water they had, which was shortly before we got the pizzas and the extra water.

Fortunately for me and my friend, we didn't really have anywhere to be that day. We were just planning to visit Quebec City. I know a lot of people on the train had a cruise to catch. One of the Via Rail staff was looking for those people. They were taking names. I'm not exactly sure what happened with that.

That's about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Coderre, for sharing that with us.

I'll now turn it over to Ms. Murray for your opening remarks.

You have five minutes, please.

[Jennifer Murray, Director, Atlantic Region, Unifor]

Thank you very much, Chair and committee members.

Unifor is the largest private sector union in Quebec and Canada, representing more than 320,000 members in all sectors of the economy. We represent more than 9,200 members in the rail sector, and 2,000 of those members are Via Rail workers, including maintenance workers, onboard staff, sales agents and customer service staff.

My name is Jennifer Murray. I'm Unifor's Atlantic regional director. I come from a history of railway workers, and I have been a proud Via Rail worker myself for 28 years. For nine of those years I have represented Via Rail workers as a union representative. I'm joined here today by Joel Kennedy, Unifor's rail sector director.

A few weeks back, we saw a stopped Via Rail train that delayed passengers for more than 10 hours. I would like to say these delays are a very rare occurrence; however, that would not be true. While delays this long bring attention from politicians, delays like this occur frequently. My comments today are not just about this single event but about the lack of planning for delays of all sorts along our rail system: delays caused by climate change-related weather events, breakdowns, train blockages and freight traffic.

Via Rail's mission recognizes that passengers must come first, but its focus has been on the impacts of potential crises on infrastructure and not on the passenger experience. Via's mission includes the line:

Our primary focus is our passengers. We work on improving our services and redefining VIA Rail to provide our passengers with the most enjoyable travel experience and to find better ways to connect Canadian communities. Safety is and will remain paramount.

The key to putting passengers first is to ensure employees can not only provide the services that passengers pay for and need in transit but that they can also do so in the face of unexpected interruptions to service. Unfortunately, implementing regressive billing changes, charging people for additional baggage, limiting access to free amenities, attempting to cut back on employees who serve travellers and providing minimum support in case of delays are hardly practices we would say put “passengers first”.

Via Rail also claims its current operational safety management system exceeds compliance standards and that it is a leader in industry practices. If this is true, industrial regulations in the rail sector need a major revision. Via's environment plan for 2030 focuses on potential climate and environmental impacts on operations but focuses entirely on infrastructure. Safety and security should include not only injury prevention and infrastructure upgrades but also how it is going to respond to those crises at the time they are happening.

Resilience is a word we use these days to define the goal of responding to impacts on rail infrastructure. At Via Rail, where we rely on those who own and operate the tracks we run on, we have limited room to provide a service that is actually resilient. As such, Via Rail must focus on ensuring there are always resources available to deal with interruptions in service caused by underinvestment in the rail sector that results in low levels of resilience in our rail infrastructure.

For these longer interruptions, ensuring passengers and crew have access to food, water, temperature-controlled areas, working facilities and alternative transport options falls solely on Via Rail. It was disappointing to hear the CEO say that there would be a review of training requirements “to ensure that all employees are better equipped for difficult situations.” Via Rail is constantly pressured to reduce costs rather than have consultations to improve service, and the decision was made in the past to reduce staff and cut services on board. They operate very lean.

We don't have proper plans in place to address food, water and facilities in the face of a crisis. Training is not the fix when Via Rail has not properly stocked the train. This type of situation leaves workers facing harassing-type behaviour from understandably frustrated passengers. It is the frontline workers who know the issues and what passengers are saying in these desperate times, and they should be consulted when decisions are being made and actions are implemented.

For years, frontline workers have been asking Via Rail for backup plans for times when staff is lean and they know they will be busy, but this dialogue always seems to fall on deaf ears. It is no secret that our rail lines in Canada were built to support freight trains. They run through some very remote areas, causing challenges when breakdowns occur. However, there must be proper protocols in place for when these situations arise, because they will.

The lack of communication and lack of food and water has always been a problem. The faces that must endure these decisions are the people who choose to travel with Via Rail and the workers, and this leaves a lasting effect on everyone.

We do not have control over the tracks, the weather or other trains on the system. We do have control over the resources put into ensuring a safe experience for passengers and crews. Unifor has long called for priority for Via Rail and for investment in track twinning, so that disruptions like this can be avoided or routed around.

We know Canadians were promised and deserve a passenger rail system that is accessible, reliable and affordable. Unifor believes this can be achieved by implementing a Via Rail act.

In the medium term, it is essential that the government provide the resources to make these recommendations a reality and make the investment expected by the public to ensure a resilient, on time, safe and comfortable experience for travellers that plans for potential crisis situations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Murray.

We'll begin our line of questioning today with Mr. Lawrence.

The floor is yours. You have six minutes, sir.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

Before I start the questioning, I would like to thank both witnesses for being here.

I have one brief but important request of the committee. I'm hoping we can dispense with this quickly with unanimous consent.

I'm sure we all saw and were greatly troubled by the news article that came out with respect to the Chipewyan First Nation. According to the article, the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation, the Mikisew Cree First Nation and the Fort Chipewyan Metis Nation were never told that the environment around “the big dock”, as it's colloquially referred to, was contaminated, despite a report commissioned by the government in 2017 that found elevated levels of arsenic, nickel and hydrocarbons.

My request is simple. We thought about maybe holding an emergency session, but before that, in order to not upend the schedule, what we would propose to do, with unanimous consent, is request from Transport Canada all documents, including the 2017 report and any reports since 2017, relating to, as it's colloquially known, “the big dock” in the Chipewyan First Nation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank very much, Mr. Lawrence.

Looking around the room, there are a lot of confused and questioning faces. If you'll permit me, I will suspend for five minutes while everyone confers.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their patience as we discuss this.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting back to order.

Thanks to our witnesses for their patience.

We'll now turn it back over to you, Mr. Lawrence, for your line of questioning. You have six minutes, sir.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. I really appreciate that.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here today.

Mr. Coderre, first, thank you for taking the time to share with us. I want to go through some of the details a bit. It seems as though you handled the situation better than other passengers. Did you feel that you were adequately communicated with during the delay?

[Cédryk Coderre]

I would say so, but it kind of depends on how you see it. They would give frequent updates, but some of the updates were “we don't have an update” or “we don't have any news” or “we don't currently have a plan”. That might introduce a bit more stress for other passengers. I've gone through a lot of delays. I travel a lot, through trains or planes, so I'm used to it. It doesn't really stress me that much.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Actually, that twigs something else for me. If you don't mind my asking, you said you travel quite a bit. Is that internationally or domestically? That's only if you're okay sharing that with us.

[Cédryk Coderre]

Yes. It's actually both. I go to Vancouver every month, and I do about two to three trips internationally every year.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

How would you compare your experience in Canadian airports and Canadian trains with some of the counterparts around the world, if you'd be so kind as to share that with us?

[Cédryk Coderre]

Around the world, from what I've noticed, there are not really any delays compared with what we're used to. I fly frequently with Air Canada, and there are very often delays. It's the same thing with Via Rail.

I recently went to South Korea and took the train there. They were always on time. It was quite impressive. They have about 30 trains a day from every city, and they were always on time.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you for that.

Just to sum it up, you've had more delays in Canada than what you've experienced on average internationally. Is that a fair statement?

[Cédryk Coderre]

Yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Perfect.

I want to move on to a bit more of your experience. I apologize as a member of Parliament here, on behalf of the federal government, that you had to go through this.

You said they had food, but it was relatively limited to pretzels and stuff. At the beginning, did they have sandwiches or anything? Were you just on pretzels for 10 hours or so?

[Cédryk Coderre]

I was actually in business class, so I got a breakfast earlier on, while the train was fine. I imagine for the people in economy, they probably had only pretzels the whole time, but I couldn't speak to that.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I don't want to get too far down the line in grossness here, but you mentioned that the washrooms got a bit stinky.

[Cédryk Coderre]

Yes.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

From what you remember, how long were they not working? I assume there was a point where they were just not usable, for obvious reasons.