Transport Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Goodridge.

Thank you, Minister.

Next we have Mr. Badawey. Mr. Badawey, the floor is yours. You have four minutes, sir.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of questions.

There are two parts to this process. There's the first part, which is the contamination and the science attached to it. The second part is the capital with respect to the dock.

On the first part, the science and the effects of the contaminants are a concern. Minister, you're stating today that you're going to partner in a community-led process that's going to complete, basically, a community-based risk assessment that identifies the contaminants of concern, the updated risks attached to those contaminants—even going back to 1997—and, with that, finally, a plan of remediation.

Let's not forget, folks, that this goes back to 1997, so all parties have had an attachment to this issue. From 1997 it was to the Harper government and, of course, after that it is to our government today. However, let's not make a mistake about it: It's not as if nothing was done about this until today, and I give you that kudos as well as that appreciation, Minister, to you and your department, and to the folks who, quite frankly, are leading this process, the community.

As we move forward with that CBRA, that community-based risk assessment, with the CFCs being identified and the remediation plans being put in place, Minister, would you agree that it's very important that this be the process and, second, that it be led by the community?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Yes, I would agree, and in fact the reason I wanted to get on the phone as soon as possible with the three nations was that I wanted to make sure that I heard them. Again, that's my commitment—consultations.

I immediately took action. I'm committed to reconciliation. Work will begin immediately on an updated environmental assessment, which was ordered. I ordered that these assessments be done in consultation and partnership with the nations, taking into account indigenous methodologies and uses. I established a single point of contact at Transport Canada.

Who will be the point person? She had an introductory meeting already with representatives on Friday. My office engaged Indigenous Services Canada to help arrange supports for mental health and trauma. Also, I engaged with Emergency Preparedness and ISC to ensure that wildfire evacuation plans are in place, and Transport Canada officials will visit the site when and if invited.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Earlier the deputy minister mentioned jurisdiction, and I'm very interested in this, because there is a source of this contamination. Based on that, there is a responsibility for the Alberta provincial government to recognize what that source of contamination is, and, second to that, to proceed with an order for them to be involved in this remediation. Has that conversation with the Province of Alberta happened yet?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'm really happy that you raised the issue of the source, because we do need to identify the source of any contamination, and that is the reason that I will be reaching out to my provincial counterpart as soon as possible. I spoke with my deputy minister and asked him to draft that letter and to arrange that communication, so that is in process right now.

I also spoke with Minister Guilbeault, who indicated to me that on the other sites that were contaminated, there was a nine-month period during which the Alberta regulator did not notify the communities. That's an issue I will bring up with my provincial counterpart as well. There are many possible sources. We need to determine the source, and it will be with multiple levels of government and departments, but I will stay on top of it.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

In my closing remarks, I also want to say thank you to the community for your involvement as well. You guys have been very much involved. We expect that is going to continue and we look forward to working with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Badawey, and thank you, Minister Anand.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to continue along the same lines as Mr. Badawey regarding contamination.

The toxicologist who appeared at the last meeting told us that the types of contaminants detected around the wharf were very similar to the contaminants that could be found in the oil sands tailings ponds. We can therefore assume that they came from those ponds.

I think that's an indication of the potential long-term consequences of oil sands development. In this case, we're talking about Fort Chipewyan, but there are surely many other communities in Canada located near oil sands tailings ponds that could be victims of this type of contamination. In some cases, the situation could even be worse than what is experienced in Fort Chipewyan.

Aren't you concerned about the major risk of contamination to the people who live there? You mentioned that the Government of Alberta was responsible. I agree, but I think the federal government has a responsibility too, since it funds the oil sands to the tune of billions of dollars.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

First of all, I do have concerns. Of course, I'm concerned, because we've seen a number of situations where more help is needed. I want to make sure that we do the work necessary on this, and I will reach out to my counterparts, as I said.

I would also like to mention the $12 million that, as Minister Guilbeault confirmed, will be devoted to a study on the effects of oil sands development on the health of people in the Fort Chipewyan region.

We assume our responsibilities, but this is an issue that involves all levels of government and all stakeholders. We have to recognize that there is a lot of work to be done in consultation with the nations concerned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister Anand and Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

To end the first round today, we have Mr. Bachrach.

The floor is yours for two minutes, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, your statement earlier that there's no evidence of risk to human health is a challenging one, I think, for the community.

We heard from the toxicologist at our last meeting that the findings were really shaped by the design of the investigations and this designation as a commercial site. What she told us was that the consultants looked only at two exposure pathways. Those were groundwater ingestion and vapour intrusion. We know that there are other ways that the community could be exposed to risks.

If those studies had been designed to consider a broader suite of potential exposure pathways, is it likely that they would have shown risk to the community? Perhaps another way to put that is that if the site use changed to a place where the community gathers plants and swims—if that was the site use, not a commercial use—would the risk to human health be different?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, this is the very reason that we need to update the study. The risk assessment considered the following potential human exposure pathways: potable groundwater ingestion, indoor vapour inhalation, outdoor vapour inhalation, ingestion of country foods and direct soil contact, as well as direct sediment contact.

There is more work to be done, and we need to be using indigenous methodologies and approaches. In order to get this right, we need to update this study , and we need to do that in consultation with indigenous peoples, including the three nations.

I want the nations to be comfortable. I want to make sure we do it according to their approach and their plan. That's my commitment to them and that's what we will continue to ensure happens.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Minister, your statement that there is no evidence of risk to human health is shaped or informed by past studies that only considered limited exposure pathways.

The federal risk assessment actually found measured concentrations of benzene and methylnaphthalene in the groundwater.

I'm just wondering how you can claim that there is no risk to human health and what that is based on. Clearly, there are toxins in the environment in an area that the community uses. Clearly, these studies were not done properly, by your own admission.

How can you claim that the site has no risk to human health?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I am referring to the 2017 study, but I'm not sure that the honourable member is hearing my words. I recognize that the 2017 study needs to be updated, and it will be updated in consultation with the nations. The studies were done properly, but updated ones will be better.

Any statement I have made is based on the evidence in the 2017 report. It would be highly imprudent for me to offer conjecture about what I believe is the case rather than relying on statements of fact undertaken by methodology. Therefore, I will personally ensure that the 2017 study is updated using the methodologies of the nations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Thank you, Minister, for your appearance today.

Colleagues, we're going to suspend for two minutes to allow the minister to leave and to set up the next round of witnesses.

This meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I call this meeting back to order.

Colleagues, joining us for the second half of today's meeting, we have, from the Department of Indigenous Services, Ms. Jennifer Wheatley, assistant deputy minister, first nations and Inuit health branch; Mr. Nelson Barbosa, director general, community infrastructure branch; and Ms. Jennifer Mercer, director, environmental public health division.

Welcome to you three.

From the Department of the Environment, we have Mr. Seth Cain, director, contaminated sites division.

Welcome to you, sir.

From the Department of Transport, we have Stephanie Hébert, who has stayed with us. She is assistant deputy minister for programs. We also have Ross Ezzeddin, director general of air, marine and environmental programs.

My understanding is that you do not have opening remarks.

With that, I will turn it over to our first questioner today, and that will be Mr. Lawrence.

You have six minutes, sir.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

We have a great deal of questions for you, but there is a very important matter I have to attend to, and I believe that we have an agreement.

I'm going to seek unanimous consent, and I believe that there will be an amendment offered as well, Chair, but the motion that I would like to move at this point, hoping for unanimous consent with an amendment from the floor, is this:

Given Air Canada's plan to restrict carry-on bags for customers purchasing its lowest-priced "basic economy" fares starting January 3, impacting the affordability of air travel for Canadians, the committee invites the CEO of Air Canada the Minister of Transport to address this matter within seven days.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much for that, Mr. Lawrence.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Badawey.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lawrence.

The only amendment that I would like to add to that, especially because a lot of other companies are participating in the same direction, not just Air Canada, is to include all the airline companies, the carriers, in the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Badawey.

I believe there was also another change that we wanted to make with regard to the timing to provide—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Yes, we have seven days set aside, Mr. Chair, but, as you know, there could be plentiful votes, so we would be agreeable to changing it from seven days to eight days or, if you prefer, to the end of the business day on December 13. Either way, it's eight days.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawrence.

I want to confer with the clerk. I believe that Mr. Badawey would have to be the one making that amendment.

Mr. Badawey, is that an amendment that you'd like to propose?

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I can, but the only caveat to that is there is a reality attached to the minister's schedule. She's trying to fit everything in before year-end. You can well imagine members of cabinet being a very hot commodity right now, and they're trying to fit everything in before year-end. Physically, it would be difficult.

I can't speak for her, but I'm just giving you a heads-up and a warning that it would be very difficult for her to agree to that time frame. It's not to say that she can't do it later on in the next week or two. We were lucky to get her out here today.

That's the only caveat that I have. Other than that, I'm fine with it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much.

We all agree, colleagues, that it would be a special meeting of the committee that would possibly take place if we—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

That's correct, and we're willing to give the chair wide latitude in arranging that.

The other thing that we would like to state—not as part of the motion, but just hopefully instructive for the clerk and chair—would be that we would prefer it to be a two-hour meeting in which there would be one hour for the minister and Air Canada and another hour for the rest of the airlines.

We're good with the amendments. Obviously we want to keep the minister's invitation in there, but we are completely aware that we cannot compel ministers to testify.