Transport Committee on May 5th, 2022

[Serge Buy]

It is clear that when the government announced programs for the environment and for public transportation, etc., they made decisions that excluded ferries, since recent funding programs to decarbonize transportation do not include the ferry sector. We are excluded. That's clear.

We asked the federal government to participate when the budget was announced last year; we had asked some time ago, and it was the same response. So we were excluded from that.

This is obviously a problem, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, and we are disappointed. The reality is that when the government makes announcements to decarbonize shipping and makes international agreements, all ferries want to be part of that. However, they recognize that a ferry is built for 40 years.

We need help to change things. Indeed, we have problems in this regard, and the government is not helping us.

I cannot comment on federal infrastructure, as the majority of our operators use their own infrastructure, which would need funding.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Buy and Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sticking with Mr. Buy for another question about ferries, in your last response you were describing in some detail the challenges around staffing and around recruitment and succession.

At our last meeting, I reached out and corresponded briefly with Kris Olsen, who is the mayor of the Village of Queen Charlotte on Haida Gwaii, and asked if he had any ferry-related questions that he wanted me to relay. That's also the topic that he wanted to know about. He wanted to know if the ferry operators, and in particular B.C. ferries, I think, have succession planning in place, particularly for ship engineers and mates.

Speaking to the larger issue of succession and retirements and recruitment of employees in this sector, do the operators have plans in place, and are they working proactively on the challenge of ensuring they have enough staff to operate the ferries and support communities?

[Serge Buy]

Mr. Bachrach, you've heard from every witness in this room, I think, that labour is a key issue.

We are certainly affected in the same manner as all of the other witnesses and all of the other sectors in Canada. There is a labour shortage in Canada. There is a specialized labour shortage in the maritime sector, and in the ferry sector we're no different from all of the others. Throughout the country, we're facing labour shortages. This is not new. This is not pandemic-related. This has taken on for a while.

So yes, indeed, the ferry operators have plans and have worked diligently to respond to those concerns. They have indeed advertised for positions. They have indeed done outreach to schools. There are a whole bunch of activities being done. The fact of the matter is that we're still dealing with a limited pool of potential workers in this sector.

Therefore there are two other possibilities, and for this we do need your help, and the help of the government in a way.

One is bringing people from outside. The federal government has started with international agreements to recognize the credentials of operators in different countries. We're not going to get replacements for all of our crews from Norway, Belgium and France. We need the government to concentrate on the countries where the biggest labour pool for our members is—the Philippines, Indonesia and others. That's the first step.

The second step is looking at our own regulations. Ferries that are operating in British Columbia, as an example, and similar ferries in Denmark for similar distances and similar numbers of passengers are requiring 16 crew members in B.C . versus nine in Denmark. That's a significant concern. That's regulatory, nothing else.

So there is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Buy.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Lastly, for today, as we do need to get to committee business, we will go to Ms. Gladu one last time.

Ms. Gladu, unfortunately there are only four minutes left for your line of questioning. The floor is yours.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Let me continue with the Ferry Association, because when I met with them to talk about some of the innovations that are being done to promote climate change, one thing that came up was that although the government is supporting those initiatives, there's missing infrastructure at the ports to connect to those.

Can you elaborate on that, Mr. Buy?

[Serge Buy]

What I can say is that generally the government has been supportive of our making changes in our operations—maybe not supportive with funding, as I indicated in my previous answer.

Regardless, you still need to bring power to the shore, where the ferries are going to be charging. That's not happening. If I may, for another region of the country, in Nova Scotia, as an example, some operators would love to be able to have electric ferries, but there is no way to bring power to the shore. Therefore, it is not going to happen.

So, yes, you're correct, Madame Gladu. When we met, I did mention that this was an issue. It remains an issue, and will for some time to come.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Excellent.

For the discussion of rail, I think it was clear from all of the testimony we've heard that, because rail is really a monopoly, we need to declare rail as an essential service in Canada. We need to make sure there are still dispute mechanisms to have arbitration, but not something that will affect it.

Do you think that the supply chain disruptions we have seen in Canada have damaged our relationship with the U.S. seeing us as a major supplier?

I'll go to CME for starters.

[Dennis Darby]

Thank you.

The U.S. doesn't usually hold a grudge. It tends to work in real time. It hurt us for that period of time where we were in a blockade, and you saw even the President react at one point.

Will it affect future decisions? Maybe. We have to work really hard to show them that we're reliable and that we can deliver when we say we're going to deliver. I think it's really important, as you said, to make sure that these critical infrastructures are protected in some kind of an essential service, yes.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Does anybody else want to comment on that one?

[Kathleen Sullivan]

I think from my perspective, I'll echo what Dennis said.

We have a very strong relationship with the U.S. in terms of trade, both ways. It takes a lot to break that relationship. Having said that, I think we have all seen a signal ourselves that we need to really start focusing on our supply chains and our infrastructure. If we don't start doing that, we run the risk of that relationship deteriorating, and of businesses making different decisions based on what they may see as a trajectory that Canada is destined for.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

We also heard a recommendation when it comes to the ports that the government needs to help to secure some land for the growth they need. Do you have any specific suggestions, for example, for the Port of Hamilton?

[Larissa Fenn]

We are looking at land within the federal portfolio that is currently underutilized. We believe we could bring it within our purview and activate it for industrial uses. We're also looking at lands that are maybe not directly on the water, but may function as inland ports.

I think this should be contemplated within the Canada Marine Act. We're hopeful that a recommendation to that effect may come through the ports modernization process.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

That's very good. I want to thank all the witnesses and I'll give you back 10 seconds, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

That is a very rare occurrence, Ms. Gladu. I appreciate it very much.

I'd just like to add my thanks to all the witnesses, particularly those who had to appear before the committee twice now due to the votes that occurred last week. We very much appreciate it. This is the final meeting for this particular study, so we want to thank you.

Feel free, witnesses, to log off at your pleasure. I ask that members remain so we can spend the last 15 minutes of this committee meeting in committee business.

Thank you very much, everyone.

Colleagues, I just wanted to have the last couple of minutes here to go over the committee schedule for the next month or so to make sure we're all on the same page and we all know what's going to be expected of us to ensure that everything moves as quickly and as smoothly as it possibly can.

First on the agenda for next week, we have the consideration of two draft reports. The first is the railway safety study, which will take place this coming Monday, May 9. Second will be the targeted infrastructure investment study report, which will take place on Thursday, May 12. If you haven't received the reports yet, please advise the clerk and he'll make sure to get those to you.

The following week, which is the 16th and the 19th, we will begin the study put forward by Ms. Lantsman on reducing red tape and costs on rural and urban Canadian airports. The following week will be a constituency week, followed by a return on May 30. At that time, the minister and department officials will be appearing before committee to address main estimates. That will be followed by the third meeting dedicated to the rural airport study.

If you have not put forward any suggested witnesses, colleagues, please do so as soon as you can so we can give the clerk and his team the necessary time to secure the witnesses and ensure their participation. Keep in mind that immediately following the study that was put forward by Ms. Lantsman, we're going to be jumping right into anticipated labour shortages. If you haven't done so, put forward your witnesses for both of those.

In addition to that and just as pressing, the clerk has asked that by next Friday we all put forward our drafting instructions on this particular study that we just concluded to ensure that these incredible people sitting here can get us the report before the end of this session.

Before turning the floor over to Ms. Lantsman to speak to her motion, are there any questions, objections or comments on the schedule for the next month?

I see no objections.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Chair, do we have a longer term view on reports? We have a work plan with a number of different studies following the ones that you mentioned. Could we run through those briefly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

That's a good question, Mr. Bachrach.

According to the analysts and the clerk, the only one that we will be able to get prior to the end of this session—by the end of June—will be the study on supply chain. The rest will be coming in the fall.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

We'll talk about it near the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Yes.

There's just a quick question from the clerk. Does everybody have enough time to review the reports that were distributed for Monday and Thursday?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Is the first one the rail study?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

It's up to the committee, but that was the plan.

Does that work for everyone? Are there any objections? Perfect.

Ms. Lantsman, the floor is yours.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a motion to present. I put forward a motion for everybody's review. I'll read that motion.

I think it's important that Canada fully supports Taiwan's participation in international organizations. Given that we are the transportation committee, I think that's important in the case of the International Civil Aviation Organization. I think it's in Canada's economic and strategic interests to strengthen our relationship with Taiwan, given some of what we are seeing in a very destabilized world.

I put forward a motion that says:

That the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities report to the House that it supports the full participation of Taiwan in the International Civil Aviation Organization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lantsman.

Are there any questions or comments?

Go ahead, Ms. Koutrakis.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

I would like, hopefully, to add a friendly amendment, and I hope that my colleagues across the way may agree to that. I am proposing that, where it says it supports the full participation of Taiwan, that “full” be replaced by the word “meaningful”; and, that instead of a report, we publish a news release statement.

The reason for that is not to delay the work of our committee and not to delay the legislative agenda as well. I'm hoping that these are two amendments will be met with approval by my colleagues.

We're aware of Taiwan's interest in strengthening its participation in ICAO. We're not against that, but when we look at the UN membership and statehood requirement, Canada is unable, as far as we're concerned—or as far as I'm concerned—to support full ICAO membership for Taiwan at this time, although we remain very open to exploring other options for Taiwan's meaningful participation in ICAO.

That is something to consider.