Transport Committee on Oct. 26th, 2022

[Nick von Schoenberg]

I think there are a couple of elements to that situation.

Over the course of the pandemic, several towers were being looked at for closure, but subsequently closure did not occur. There were also a number of air traffic controllers who were put on layoff notice, and that did not occur either. Nevertheless, our total number of controllers did diminish over the course of the pandemic.

The recovery, as I mentioned at the outset, has been faster than projected. We are now in a labour shortage. We don't have enough controllers, which is resulting in restrictions and delays.

Over the course of the past summer, I think it's fair to say that those types of issues existed broadly across the industry, so what was attributable specifically to air traffic control may not be as evident. However, given our lengthy training time, I think it's fair to say that much of the rest of the industry is going to recover before we do, and so—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. von Schoenberg. Unfortunately, there is no time left.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach. Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I am getting an unstable Internet signal, so if I'm not coming through, please let me know.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for their presentations on this important topic.

I'll give a big hello to Mr. Veldman, who I believe is in Prince Rupert today. I'm in Terrace, B.C., just down the road from you.

I want to allow you to expand a bit on your presentation on the port of Prince Rupert, which is obviously an exciting expansion story in the northwest.

You mentioned the need to attract a considerable number of new residents to the community of Prince Rupert. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the initiatives the port has undertaken, in partnership with the community, to attract new people to take those positions.

[Ken Veldman]

Thank you. I'm happy to do that.

The initiatives are both in a general way within the community as well as specifically into labour. Speaking initially from a port authority perspective, one thing we've been able to do is act as a coordinator for not just our port-related employer partners but also more broadly for community employers to put together a co-operative recruitment program to be able to get into labour markets that are further afield. That's creating more awareness around not only employment opportunities within this region but also what it's like to live in a unique and attractive part of our country.

We also have been in the fortunate position of taking 5% of our net income as a port authority every year and investing it in partnership with community organizations in different capital assets, ranging from medical equipment to sports fields to art centres, etc. Again, that's with a real focus on legacy capital assets that impact quality of life. However, we're only one part of that.

Certainly we have a number of local partners, whether that be terminal operators like DP World or AltaGas or whether that be B.C. Maritime Employers Association and the local labour unions, that work very closely in ensuring that they are offering unique training opportunities that fit this community and this region, and they are largely with a focus on our indigenous population. In the transportation supply chain workforce report, you certainly saw that theme of trying to ensure that areas of our community that were under-represented in the labour force were getting that broad opportunity. There are many examples of that.

As I indicated during my presentation, our single biggest challenge is that we need more people to take advantage of those kinds of programs. Certainly there are specialized skills within this industry, whether in terminals on the water or in trucking or in rail, and I think we have the same challenges as many other regions of the country.

However, as I said earlier, in a smaller, more isolated community, there's a much more daunting prospect to recruiting, and recruiting has to be a part of how we grow this community. While we are leaning in as hard as we can collectively, it's also something that sometimes requires bigger signals and encouragement from other partners.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Veldman.

Port jobs are highly paid industrial jobs, and that's wonderful for the portion of the population who are able to secure those jobs. One thing I think most of us have heard from the community is that having that high percentage of well-paid industrial jobs puts quite a bit of pressure on other parts of the economy, particularly the service economy, social services, and hospitality and tourism. This is a phenomenon that you're well acquainted with.

Perhaps it's a bit more of a philosophical question, but I'm wondering how the federal government and local governments should work together to ensure that the rest of the economy also has the labour force it needs to function and provide the services that the community needs.

[Ken Veldman]

I hope it came across as a part of my presentation that it certainly isn't just port-related employers that are facing labour shortage issues; this problem moves through the rest of the community as well.

While that is true, Ms. Koutrakis made the comment earlier around wages, and we've essentially seen average wages within the port industry almost double over the last 10 to 15 years. The average wage is between $90,000 and $100,000 annually, so it does pay quite well.

To your point, Mr. Bachrach, there's a relatively low barrier to entry for many jobs within the port industry from a skills and experience perspective. While there are many benefits to that in terms of who we can bring into the industry, the other challenge is that we are also competing with other sectors that are often looking for a labour force that traditionally matches up with those demographics. When you have a finite labour force, that is absolutely where the challenge is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but time is up, Mr. Veldman.

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

There have been discussions among parties. I just want unanimous consent to move forward with the second round. All members will be voting virtually through the voting app.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, colleagues.

We'll move to Mr. Strahl. The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. My question is for Mr. Gibbons.

You spoke about instability that had been caused by an accordion of regulations, as I believe you called it, that were brought upon the industry as a result of the pandemic. I agree that we're not here to relitigate that particularly, but I would like you to talk about the impact of that instability.

Obviously the airline sector was impacted first and, I would argue, was let out of jail last, so the government's regulations for COVID did have the greatest impact on your sector. We've seen in the energy sector, for instance, what uncertainty does to confidence, not only for workers but also for investors. We see hundreds of billions of dollars leave the country and hundreds of thousands of jobs leave the country as well when the government doesn't provide a certain regulatory environment.

Could you expand a little bit on what you meant by instability and how we can work together to ensure that you have the regulatory environment and the stability you need to succeed as a company?

[Andrew Gibbons]

I think there are three pockets to the stability question. I guess one would be operational stability. The second would be financial stability. The third would be labour stability.

As it relates to labour stability, whether or not you believe in the restrictions and whether or not you believe they were justified, the reality of the situation for the travel and tourism sector—and this has been well stated by the entire sector—is that the nature of how restrictions were and were not applied did lead to people leaving the sector and choosing a more stable career path and more stable career options. You've heard this from other witnesses here today. It's not a state secret.

What can we do about it? That's your question, Mr. Strahl, and I think what we can do about it is look to a report such as the lessons learned report written by five epidemiologists and commissioned and published by the Tourism Industry Association of Canada. It talked about how restrictions should be in place, how important metrics are and how important it is for everyone to understand why these things are being put in place and the conditions upon which they should be lifted. That gets us out of this situation we've been in for the last two years or so when cases are going up and maybe restrictions are coming back and maybe they're not.

To the greatest extent possible, these doctors have been asking the federal government for that type of.... We'll never have public health stability—everyone understands that—but what we can have is some public policy stability and understanding of what is required and when, and, most importantly, what that stability achieves for the public health situation generally.

To your question on operational stability, I mentioned this in our remarks, and we'll be talking about it more this winter. I'll use an example. One evening in June, we had 700 guests miss their connecting flights in Toronto. This is not a blame game comment; it's just an observation. All of them were lined up at a WestJet counter. They were lined up at a WestJet counter looking for a hotel voucher, a food voucher, a connecting flight or what have you. There's no CBSA counter at the airport and there's no CATSA, so they all end up at WestJet's counter.

I think what we're looking for as we emerge out of this crisis are perhaps some service-level agreements with government agencies, and perhaps a shared accountability structure, so that it's not just the airline that pays compensation when your travel is disrupted: It is assigned to who is responsible for that disruption. I think that lifts all boats and improves the overall level of service.

If you accept that airlines are accountable for their faults, guess what? We do as well, which is why we're under regulation. We abide by that, but if you accept that regulations are needed to keep airline service levels high, then I believe, and we believe, that you should also accept that this should be a true statement for anyone who delivers a service to the travelling public. We think that's—

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Do I have time for one more?

[Andrew Gibbons]

I'm sorry. I'm going on. I'll stop.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 20 seconds, Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

When the government lifted the last restrictions, they said that it was just a suspension. Can you comment on that part of it?

[Andrew Gibbons]

I think that's what motivated groups such as the Tourism Industry Association of Canada and Perrin Beatty, the president of the Chamber of Commerce, and others to say, “Thank God we're through that. Thank God we're through that phase and we've moved on”, but part of moving on also needs to be a lessons learned exercise and a more predictable framework for how these policies get implemented again, so—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gibbons. Thank you, Mr. Strahl.

[Andrew Gibbons]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Next we have Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to all of our guests today.

I'll say hello first of all to Mr. Veldman. I was chatting with some of your folks at Prince Rupert Port Authority yesterday, and they gave me a quick overview of your long-term plans. Congratulations. It looks great, actually, and they advised me of some of the support you're getting through the Canada Infrastructure Bank and the national trade corridors fund.

I remember that when Prince Rupert stepped up to the plate when the floods in B.C. washed out the highways and railways and so on, it was critically important to our supply chain, so thank you for that.

Mr. Chair, first of all, I want to read a statement I have here that I've been thinking about.

In response to the pandemic, the Government of Canada has put in place a number of financial support measures, such as the Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy; the Business Credit Availability Program; and, the Large Employer Emergency Financing Facility, to assist all sectors of the economy, including air transportation.

For the air sector, the Government of Canada has provided rent relief from March to December 2020 for the 21 airport authorities that have ground leases with the federal government, as well as to comparable treatment for Ports Toronto, which operates Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport.

Funding of up to $191.3 million for provinces and territories was also announced to ensure continuity of essential goods and services to remote fly-in communities.

[In addition,] the Government of Canada announced an additional $1.1 billion in financial support for the air sector through a series of targeted measures designed to support regional connectivity, critical infrastructure investments and the continued operation of Canada's airports.

As I listened to our witnesses, I was thinking back to when we were designing these programs and trying to work with the airline industry. I just want to ask this to Mr. Perry: How much more do you think the federal government should have provided, and can you provide a dollar amount to that question?

[Capt Tim Perry]

Thank you very much for the question.

I think it's well worth noting the extraordinary effort by this government that went into stabilizing the economy and stabilizing the lives of Canadians. That does not go unnoticed by anybody—not by me and not by our organization.

My point was about the specialized funding, which I believe would have been helpful and which was missing. Aviation is a highly specialized industry and it requires specialized attention in its time of need, and that's what we found.

Those programs, despite how valuable they were and all the extraordinary effort that went into them, failed to stabilize our industry. Our industry still entered a period of instability that we do not believe was necessary.

I can't provide a dollar figure right now—I'd be happy to return with one—but a significant investment would have been required, and I think that would have or could have stabilized the industry.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you for that, Mr. Perry.

Talking about labour shortages, we all keep talking about training and programs to get people into the industries. We're talking about all industries, but for the airline industry, who do you think is responsible for training new workers and what role do you see government playing?

Any of the airline industry folks can comment on that.

[Andrew Gibbons]

I'm happy to do so. Thanks so much for the question.

I want to touch on the wage subsidy, because I know it's an important issue. At the WestJet group, obviously we availed ourselves of that program. We're grateful for that program. That program kept a lot of our employees close culturally to our company and kept them tied to us. If you know any WestJetters, you know how important that is, so we definitely availed ourselves of that program and are grateful for it.

With respect to financial aid, obviously it's a matter of public record. We did not make an agreement with the federal government. I can't explain to you why, because we're under an NDA, but that didn't happen, and it's a source of pride for many in our company that we did not do so and that we stand on our own today.

With respect to training, I think it's the same message, Mr. Chair, which is that we're not waiting for government for the answers. I mentioned our partnership with the provincial government; I mentioned that government only because it's our home government, and one of the lessons out of COVID is that everyone has to work together. It's not just airlines. It's not just post-secondary. It's not just provincial. It's not just federal. We're not sitting around waiting for answers from one form of government. We have to go out and make sure we're charting our own destiny and making those partnerships that make that happen. That's what we're doing at WestJet. I'm happy to talk about the agreement if you like, but that's where we are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gibbons, and thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

We're going to have to suspend for the purposes of voting, and we'll reconvene following the vote.

The meeting is now suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

The meeting has now resumed.

We will resume our round of questioning with Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.