Transport Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

My last question, Mr. Chairman, is with respect to communities. It's a question I asked the Canadian Transportation Agency back in June, at a meeting we held on this very issue. It has to do with the effects of rail operations on municipalities. I guess it was relative to the times of operation. Of course, with noise, odour and vibration, the safety of individuals and neighbouring communities can be a question.

The answer I got back from the CTA was that they would monitor existing situations, and with that, would put in place, based on complaints, an order that operations would be happening only at certain times of the day, for example. If these impacts are drastic at nighttime, then, of course, the operators wouldn't be able to operate at night.

What jurisdiction does your organization have over this, with respect to the effects of rail operations on neighbouring communities?

[Kathleen Fox]

We have no jurisdiction per se, Mr. Chair, in that respect, but when we are investigating a crossing accident, we look at what impact those issues have had on a particular occurrence. Whether it's a train being delayed on a crossing, which can influence driver and pedestrian behaviour and perhaps lead to unsafe practices, is something we're looking at in a current ongoing investigation. We definitely look at that. We look at the standards. We look at the regulations in place.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

With respect to “other” situations that happen at crossings and sidings, are the recommendations that come out of the report that you have, under certain circumstances, passed on to Transport Canada and the CTA?

What's the protocol with respect to situations that you investigate and of course the recommendations that you would otherwise make on those situations?

[Kathleen Fox]

If we were to make a specific recommendation relating to railway crossings, it goes to the Minister of Transport, who of course oversees both Transport Canada and the CTA in the portfolio. We make our recommendations to the Minister of Transport or to a minister of a federal department that's involved in overseeing the safety of the occurrence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

I now give the floor to Mr. Barsalou-Duval for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fox, in your opening statement, you spoke of uncontrolled movements of trains. Many of us know that this is what led to the tragedy in Lac-Mégantic. Recently, I became aware of a document published by the TSB, which indicated that the uncontrolled movement of trains was on an upward trend. You also mentioned, I think, that uncontrolled movements of trains are included in the Watchlist.

In your opinion, why is this trend on the rise?

Has the TSB made recommendations in this regard that have not yet been implemented, but that would help to change things?

[Kathleen Fox]

Uncontrolled movements arise from three situations. Since time is short, I won't describe each one in detail. We observed 78 cases in 2019, but concluded that they were going down in 2020 and 2021. We do not know if this reduction was attributable to measures taken by stakeholders to improve safety or to reduced rail activity during the pandemic. That is an issue we want to analyze.

We made two recommendations, one of which was made following the accident in Lac-Mégantic and the other more recently. In the latter, we recommended that Transport Canada work closely with the rail industry and union representatives to determine the causes of uncontrolled movements. The goal is to find solutions to reduce the frequency of these events and the risks they represent.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you very much.

According to the follow-up audit conducted in 2021, the government was unable to adequately implement measures suggested in the 2013 Report of the Auditor General.

Do you find that the department provides satisfactory answers to problems raised in the course of your investigations?

[Kathleen Fox]

We have certainly seen improvements, specifically with regard to monitoring conducted by Transport Canada. However, we want to see more marked progress in some areas. For example, all railway companies in Canada have been subjected to a safety management system audit. The idea was to confirm that these companies had a system in place compliant with regulations.

We want to know if their system is effective, if it works and if it achieves the desired results. However, we have not yet seen the evidence. That is why this is on the Watchlist.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

The effectiveness of a system is important. Indeed, if a system is not effective, it has no utility whatsoever.

In a recent petition circulated by the Teamsters, they said that TSB investigators had their hands tied in terms of assigning fault for a rail accident.

Do you consider that TSB investigators have sufficient powers to make the necessary improvements to rail safety in Canada?

[Kathleen Fox]

I'm not sure I correctly understood your question.

Investigators certainly conduct investigations into railway occurrences. Reports and recommendations are produced, as needed, through the TSB.

I don't exactly know the purpose of your question and I apologize.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I would like to know if you do indeed consider that the TSB's powers are sufficient to make significant changes.

[Kathleen Fox]

With respect to investigations and data collection, for example, we have sufficient powers under the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act.

Moreoever, the implementation of our recommendations is not mandatory, nor should it be. This gives us the ability to present arguments in favour of changes without participating in decision-making, since that could lead to a conflict of interest during an investigation.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

In your remarks, you said that your role was not to determine who is guilty or to assign fault during investigations into specific situations.

Does that sometimes slow down your work, in a way?

[Kathleen Fox]

That is not the case at all.

In fact, I see it as an advantage. We can ask people for information, because they know that their testimony is protected by the Act and we are not there to determine civil or criminal liability. That leads them to trust investigators more when they ask their questions.

If people thought that we could judge their actions and maybe lay charges, they would be less inclined to cooperate with us and give us information.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

My next question is on...

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I am sorry, Mr. Barsalou-Duval, but you have 15 seconds left. If you agree, you can ask your question during the next round.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Perfect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

I now give the floor to Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, you have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Fox. It's good to see you back at the committee.

I'd like to pick up on the earlier remarks of my colleague, Mr. Barsalou-Duval, about safety management systems. When I looked at the TSB's watch-list and the concerns the TSB has had with it over time, which it hopes to see remedied, I was surprised to learn that safety management systems have been on the watch-list since it was created.

Could you speak to why these safety management systems have remained on the watch-list for so long—over a decade—and why Transport Canada hasn't been able to do enough to meet your concerns and address the things you're raising when it comes to these vital components of railway safety?

[Kathleen Fox]

When it comes to safety management systems being on the TSB watch-list, you are correct in saying that they have been on it since 2010. However, if we were to look at each of the different versions of the watch-list, we would see that it has evolved over the years to now being multimodal, because the concerns are different for air or for marine compared to for rail.

With respect to rail, railways have been required to have safety management systems since 2001. The SMS regulations were significantly strengthened in 2015 with the introduction of railway operating certificates and much more prescriptive, detailed regulations.

We are seeing two things, which is why rail safety management is still on the watch-list. Through our investigations, we have found that the railways are not identifying hazards and not conducting risk assessments all the time, or at least during the time of our investigations. They are also not effectively mitigating the risks in their operations, and that situation has contributed to accidents and incidents.

With respect to Transport, their oversight of the SMS has not yet looked at the effectiveness of railway safety management, although they've indicated that they've started to.

That's why those issues are still on the watch-list for railways.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll just pick up on that last point you made. Have recent Transportation Safety Board investigations identified failings related specifically to the safety management systems that contributed to the rail incidents?

Maybe I'll rephrase that. Are these shortcomings of the safety management systems contributing to accidents, and have your investigations found that?

[Kathleen Fox]

To be clear, Mr. Chair, they are contributing to some occurrences but not all; I don't want to say all. Certainly in some cases they are. Some of them are ongoing, and when these reports are issued, you will certainly see how Transport Canada oversight has been a contributing factor or has created a risk of such accidents.

Certainly that was evident in the Lac-Mégantic investigation that we released in 2014 based on the 2013 accident. Again, in fairness to Transport, they've come a long way. They've done a lot of things, but we are still seeing some issues in some reports, so we continue to look at that and to either make recommendations or keep it on our watch-list.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Speaking to the issue of effectiveness monitoring, can you break down in really plain English terms why it's important that Transport Canada monitor the effectiveness of these safety management systems? The safety management systems are very complex and opaque to most residents of the riding I represent.

Can you spell out why it's important that Transport Canada audit the effectiveness of these systems?

[Kathleen Fox]

It starts with the fact that the railways are first and foremost responsible to manage the safety of their operations, as any transportation operator is. You need a strong framework with regulations, and then you need strong oversight to make sure companies are able to identify the things that can go wrong, take steps to make sure they don't lead to adverse consequences, and make sure the steps they've taken fix the issue they've identified.

That is how you reduce risk in operations. Reducing risk reduces the chance of accidents.