Evidence of meeting #4 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, we believe that to reduce the risk of not following signal indications, which is often not a question of somebody just blowing through a signal.... We're talking about misinterpreting or bad weather. There are a whole bunch of reasons why that may happen.
The ultimate solution to reducing that risk is technology. In fact, this past weekend Transport Canada issued a notice of intent with respect to enhanced train technology, which we have been calling for now since 2000.
Liberal
Annie Koutrakis Liberal Vimy, QC
I have one last question. This is really to educate me, more than anything.
I heard you speak about accidents versus incidents. Could you elaborate a little, please? What's the distinction between the two?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
There's a specific definition in our regulations. In simple terms, an accident usually involves damage and/or injuries or death, whereas an incident would be when, for example, a train crew didn't stop at a signal, but they didn't hit anything or derail.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Ms. Koutrakis.
Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for two and half minutes.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Given that I have not directed any questions to Mr. Lapointe, responsible for investigations, I will seize the opportunity.
Mr. Lapointe, for a certain number of years, we have seen an increase—or at least, an upward trend—of transportation of dangerous goods, especially transportation of oil, which seems to be very popular.
If in the years the come, there were to be an increase in transportation of oil by rail going through our cities, could that lead to other disasters or increase the risk of disaster?
Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Thank you for the question.
I would like to come back to a point Ms. Fox raised earlier. More attention must be given to maintenance and everything that affects the safety of the means of transportation, whether it is oil or other dangerous goods.
As for a possible increase in transportation of dangerous goods, we will have to wait and see. Right now, we are focusing on what we see. There are several accidents that we have investigated and, in some cases, that we are still investigating, where the performance of tank cars was being monitored. We will then be able to comment on changes made to those cars.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
The TSB studied the Lac-Mégantic accident, and a report came out. Since then, the implementation of a rail bypass was announced and the government is promoting a project connected to that bypass.
We found out through the media that Canadian Pacific, or CP, wants to quadruple train speed and double the length of convoys, according to its operating plan.
Was the TSB consulted on this matter, and if not, did it give opinions on, for example, certain decisions or authorizations?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
To my knowledge, we were not consulted, not was it necessary to do so. We have no opinion to express on the subject of the Lac-Mégantic rail bypass. I understand full well why, on a psychological level, the citizens of Lac-Mégantic want a rail bypass.
From our point of view, regardless of where the trains run, it must be done safely.
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
When a route is changed, aren't you consulted or asked to give your opinion on the greater or lesser degree of safety of that change?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
No. It is not our role to express our opinion about the safety of a route change. However, if there is an investigation after an accident or incident and we determine that certain factors were not taken into consideration during the change, we would mention it in our report.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.
Mr. Bachrach, you have two and a half minutes. The floor is yours.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Ms. Fox, fatigue management has been on the watch-list for a number of years. When I talk to railroaders in the community I live in, and there are many of them, fatigue is something they frequently raise with me.
Do the current fatigue management plans of the railways reflect the most up-to-date science on fatigue?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, that would be difficult for me to answer because I haven't seen specifically each plan for each railway. It was Transport Canada's responsibility to review and approve those plans, so I can't speak to whether they meet the current thinking with respect to fatigue management.
We certainly encourage it, though. We want to see that the rules and the schedules apply, particularly in freight train operations, which are often unscheduled or at least not on a schedule that can be predicted, and which run 24-7 and can have a definite impact on crew fatigue.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Ms. Fox, when you talk to the companies about fatigue management, what are the barriers they raise? Why aren't they addressing this to your satisfaction, and why haven't they over the years?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
There are, I'm sure, a number of considerations. One would be that any schedule to address fatigue has to be done through collective bargaining. While collective bargaining should never stand in the way of doing the right thing when it comes to fatigue management, scheduling is an important part of collective bargaining and can have a definite impact on fatigue management.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Just shifting gears here, you mentioned enhanced train control technologies. I understand there was a TSB investigation following a derailment in 2012, near Burlington, that recommended these enhanced rail controls. That's almost a decade ago. Just now we have the federal government announcing that they're going to implement these.
Why did it take nearly a decade to act on this Transportation Safety Board recommendation?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, in fact it took longer than that, because the first recommendation that we made with respect to physical defences in that respect goes back to 2000, and in 2013 we updated it with the Burlington accident you've just mentioned.
We are very anxious to see what the details are going to be on this notice of intent. We feel it's very important. There are about 30-plus occurrences a year. Not all of them result in accidents and derailments, but the risk of a catastrophe is there as long as we rely strictly on a human being to follow the rules.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Perhaps I can fit one more in, Mr. Chair. Both CN and CP have these technologies installed on their tracks in the United States and have for a number of years. Why is the U.S. so much further ahead when it comes to adopting this technology?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, that's a very good question, and it's one we've asked in a recent report.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke
Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.
For the next round we will go to Mr. Dowdall.
Mr. Dowdall, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.
February 10th, 2022 / 4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Terry Dowdall Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON
I want to thank our presenters on the panel today for being here.
In beginning, I know that the TSB is an independent body, but that being said, this is our first meeting in, what, six months, since “the most important election since 1945”, I believe. I'm just curious. As times have changed, we have, at this moment, the most divided society I've seen in my lifetime. I have concerns. I know there are blockades and convoys here, and we're seeing trucks and vehicular travel, whether it's at border crossings or whether it's here in Ottawa. Certainly, at all the border points, it's a concern.
As for my question, I've not really heard a plan from the government on anything about how we're going to get out of where we are today, so I'm kind of curious about where you stand as a board. I'm going to ask questions like this: What are the safety protocols you have in place that deal with risks associated with the blockade? Also, I'm more concerned about the fact that whatever we thought it could be before, this is a little different. There's a lot of iron out there. There are a lot of individuals, more than than I've ever seen in my lifetime, who are frustrated.
I'm just wondering. Have you had a call from the government at all, first of all to make sure that your plan is solid? If so, has the plan changed because of what we're seeing with this type of blockade?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Mr. Chair, we investigate air, rail, marine and pipeline accidents. We have nothing to do with surface transportation, so it's really outside of our jurisdiction.
Conservative