Transport Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[Kelly Gillis]

Since 2015, Infrastructure Canada has approved and announced 10,617 projects, with funding totalling $43.9 billion. That's not counting gas tax projects, Infrastructure Bank of Canada projects and major bridge projects, such as the new Samuel De Champlain Bridge.

Since 2015, then, there are a lot of investments that are working and projects that are moving forward in the country.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

From your side, you say that the balance sheet is positive. I understand that whenever a dollar is invested in a good project, it can only be positive. At the same time, it seems to take a long time for the money to reach its destination. Indeed, according to commentators and independent analysts, such as the Auditor General, the money is not getting out of Infrastructure Canada fast enough, generally speaking.

How do you explain these different interpretations of the situation? Is it just a matter of perception?

[Kelly Gillis]

Actually, there are two things to consider.

Firstly, the economic activity starts as soon as the project is approved. That's when the project can go ahead and individuals, municipalities or communities can start hiring the engineers and planners and spending the money. In order for the funds to be released to the community, the community must first send the invoice to the province, in most cases, and it is then forwarded to our department.

On the other hand, as I said, just in our programs alone, there are over 10,000 projects, for which the funds total $43.9 billion. That is a lot of money. These are projects that have already been approved and have begun to generate economic activity across the country.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

The government itself recognized a few years ago that Canada had a significant infrastructure deficit. I believe it feels the same today.

In addition to this infrastructure deficit, we see that money is not flowing as quickly as it should for projects.

Do you think Infrastructure Canada will be able to solve this infrastructure problem, or will it get worse?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

Many countries are currently looking at this issue and doing analyses.

That's why we launched Canada's National Infrastructure Assessment last year, to establish a discussion with the different levels of government and the different stakeholders in the infrastructure field. We need to determine our needs between now and 2050. There are a lot of demands. We need to plan together how we are going to work to improve this situation.

In the spring and summer of last year, we had quite intensive engagements to look at this. We're still working with the provinces, territories and communities to define the needs so that we can come up with a plan based on good data.

Australia, New Zealand and the UK are working on these types of issues as well, that is to say, how to develop a long-term plan and investment in the infrastructure that will be needed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Gillis and Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all of the officials.

Ms. Gillis, I'd like to start with some questions about public transit.

I think the local government sector across Canada, especially larger cities with big transit systems, were pleased to see the government's recent announcement of $750 million to support the operating shortfall that those systems are facing. Given the urgency of the situation that a lot of transit agencies are facing, could you provide some sense as to when those funds are going to flow to municipalities?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just before I get to that, I promised you an answer on your question from before.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes, thank you.

[Kelly Gillis]

Actually, the assessment guide, including the evaluation criteria, is on our website. It's in section 4.3. I'd be happy to send that particular link to the committee chair so you all have that information. As well, we're doing webinars right now and trying to answer any questions people have as they're going through the application guide and the assessment criteria.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's fantastic. I think that question was formulated back when the minister was scheduled to first appear, so they have probably been posted since that time.

[Kelly Gillis]

Sorry. No, they were posted prior to that, so—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay. That is good to know.

[Kelly Gillis]

Going back to your question on public transit, it is a very important area that we are investing in and looking at advancing. Certainly, with regard to the operating budget shortfall that different transit agencies have advanced, they have been speaking with the Department of Finance and working with it on the particulars, including the commitment of provincial-territorial matching and some of the requirements for advancing housing needs within communities.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Is there no specific timeline at this point?

[Kelly Gillis]

That would be with the Department of Finance. It would have a better appreciation of the advancement of those conversations.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks, Ms. Gillis.

On that same topic, the announcement of the $750 million came with an interesting condition on provinces to meet certain benchmarks when it comes to housing supply.

I'm wondering if you could speak to how your department measures that and what those benchmarks would be. When do you know that the provinces have satisfied those criteria and are able to access those funds?

[Kelly Gillis]

For the operating budget commitment that the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance has made, that is with the Department of Finance. It is looking at the details of those particulars regarding both the provincial-territorial matching and any particular housing commitments with the discussions with those municipalities that would need it for those transit authorities.

It's similar to the safe restart agreement where that particular fund or that particular transfer is not through our ministry, the infrastructure department.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks, Ms. Gillis.

I'll move on to something that I think does fall within this department, the national infrastructure assessment, and in particular the appointment of the independent advisory body that's going to inform that work.

Could you speak to the process for appointing the members of that advisory body? In particular, will there be a role for Parliament in that process?

[Kelly Gillis]

As we have gone through the extensive consultations and we've posted a what we've heard report, you will have seen that it's very important that we're basing infrastructure decisions on a body of evidence and experts.

What we are working on right now is what the governance would be and how the process would work. We are still working on some of the details of what that particular institution would be, what the process for engaging would be and what the governance of it would be.

There were a number of different comments. We've received over 300 submissions with different views. Those are all being taken into consideration as we look at the next steps and the actual structure of that particular body.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

On the same topic of the national infrastructure assessment, other jurisdictions that have done assessments like this, and I'm thinking of the U.K. in particular, have essentially put into place accountability frameworks that have reporting to Parliament on whether or not the government is meeting the objectives that are set out in the infrastructure assessment. Instead of being a snapshot in time, it's an ongoing process with accountability built in.

Is the government looking at a similar framework for this country's national infrastructure assessment?

[Kelly Gillis]

We have engaged the U.K. and are looking at their model. We've also engaged Australia and New Zealand. We're looking at all the different models that countries have put in place. Sir John Armitt has come and spoken with us a few times about their particular model.

As I said, we're determining now what the different options are for its governance and structure and are learning from others in how they've done their particular national infrastructure assessments.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll turn now to the Canada Infrastructure Bank.

We've had some great questions from the committee. Obviously there's a lot of frustration that the bank is simply not living up to its promised mandate and that the track record so far is pretty lackluster, to say the least.

One of the frustrations is that the bank's mandate is quite narrow. What we saw in the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report on the bank is that all these communities were putting forward projects to the bank, because, of course, communities have infrastructure needs and they see this as one of the potential funding sources, yet I believe 45% of the submissions to the bank were rejected because they didn't meet the bank's narrow criteria around private sector participation and also around being of a certain size to justify the bank's involvement. The number I have is 189 projects were rejected based on those criteria. I wonder if this doesn't speak to the fact that the bank is not meeting the needs of communities, especially small communities that really need to see their infrastructure funded.

I need to phrase this in a way that's not hypothetical.

Does this not point to a need to revise the criteria of the bank so that it's really speaking to the needs of communities, especially small communities such as the ones in northwest B.C.?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Mr. Bachrach, unfortunately we're going to have to wait until the next round for a response to that question.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Sorry.