Transport Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

The next five minutes go to Mr. Chahal.

The floor is yours.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning, Minister. It's good to see you. You're looking great and healthy on my screen. I hope for the best in your recovery in the upcoming days. Thank you for joining us.

For me, your department is extremely essential to the work we're doing across the country. In my community in Calgary Skyview—I was a city councillor in 2020—we were devastated in June 2020, during COVID, with a hailstorm. It cost $1.5 billion in terms of the damage; there were over 70,000 claims. Deerfoot Trail was under water; the airport tunnel was flooded. It caused extensive damage.

We didn't see much or any response from the provincial government to support our community. For months, nobody showed up to help us in our recovery.

With more extreme weather-related events, what programs are available to directly help our communities adapt and prepare infrastructure for events like these?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Mr. Chair, through you to our colleague Mr. Chahal, thank you. I'm happy to see you as well. I don't have as elegant a backdrop as you do. I'm at home in Moncton.

I have visited Calgary many times. I used to hang out in Calgary with your brother some years ago. I am very familiar with your city.

To your point, I remember the devastating consequences of sudden and severe weather events. In my conversations with both our finance minister and the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, one thing is on how we can use infrastructure programs—either create new ones quickly or add flexibility and funds to existing infrastructure programs—precisely to be able to respond not only to the circumstances of what happened in your city of Calgary, but as we rebuild damaged infrastructure, to do so in a way that we're not back at it again in three years because there's been another extreme weather event.

We have the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund. That's one example. Since 2018, the Government of Canada has put out about $3.4 billion to help communities rebuild and remain more resilient in the face of natural disasters created by climate change.

We've announced $1.9 billion of funding for 69 projects across the country to look at exactly those kinds of threats: wildfires, floods, drought. We're looking at a series of smaller-scale projects that can be applied for, and we launched an intake for small- and large-scale projects, including a guaranteed $138 million being set aside for some of the indigenous communities that are also very much affected by this.

I think we could do more, Mr. Chahal. I think we have to do more. My conversations with the finance minister are encouraging in terms of our ability to step up. The example in your city is sadly one of many across the country.

[George Chahal, Liberal, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you for that, Minister.

Going over to the importance of public transit, my constituency has the Blue Line. It is some of the highest used public transit in the city of Calgary, with the bus routes and the Blue Line, but we need further extensions to the Blue Line. The Green Line is also being built towards my community. There are, potentially, opportunities for rail to the city of Edmonton and to connect our downtown, our airport and the mountains.

How will investing in modern transit create jobs and investment for our city moving forward?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

That's a great question, Mr. Chahal. With your experience in municipal council, you would have seen the importance of the Green Line project to Calgary's light rail transit system. The Government of Canada, I think, contributed about $1.5 billion.

We're very open to working with municipal and provincial partners on the Blue Line. These are, in our view, essential projects for the sustainable economic development of communities like yours, but they also speak to the quality of life, as you say, for Calgarians and for people who go to Calgary for work and perhaps live in other communities.

One of the things we announced in 2021 was the permanent public transit program with almost $15 billion over eight years. The mayors and transit authorities always say to us that you can't give a short amount of time even if it's a big quantum of money. They need to do the planning and the environmental assessments. You would know that from your experience in municipal government more than I would. These are complicated undertakings, so to have a longer runway and more sustainable, predictable funding will allow us to do projects like the Blue Line in Calgary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you have been asked a number of questions about the Canada Infrastructure Bank so far, and I think there are good reasons for that. Although it is already a few months old, a report published by the Parliamentary Budget Officer in 2021 states that, out of a total of $12.5 billion set aside for projects, only $2.5 billion come from the private sector. When the government announced the setting up of the bank, it was a matter of investing one dollar for every five dollars from the private sector. Yet, currently, 20% of the funding is apparently coming from the private sector, rather than 500%. Based on the rule of three, the $2.5 billion invested by the private sector accounts for 4% of the $62.5‑billion objective, for an equivalent project value.

Are you happy with the outcome in terms of the promises you made?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

No, I am not yet satisfied, as you say, with the ability of the Canada Infrastructure Bank to go out and seek private partnerships. That was one of the reasons why, at the time, the government created the bank through a budget. The bank was certainly delayed in the first year or two before it was operational, but those delays are behind us. The bank is now up and running and is involved in many projects across the country. I have seen the list of projects it is evaluating: it is reassuring and impressive.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

So you are telling us that we will see an increase soon.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Yes, absolutely.

We need to increase private funding. Like you, I am not yet satisfied with the bank's ability to raise funds from private investors as a complement to its capital investments. I have also expressed this to the chair of the bank's board of directors.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

The Infrastructure Canada portfolio has changed hands a lot. From 2015 to 2019, Mr. Champagne was head of the department. Then, from 2019 to 2021, it was Ms. McKenna. Now, in 2022, it is you who holds the post.

How can you explain that? Is it because it is a difficult department? Is it because there are challenges in terms of effectiveness? Are there important things to do that the ministers before you failed to do?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Would you give a 10-second response, please, Minister.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

You forgot our former colleague Amarjeet Sohi, who is now the mayor of the City of Edmonton. He was the first to serve as Minister of Infrastructure and Communities after our victory in 2015.

When Ms. McKenna decided not to run for re-election, the Prime Minister had to choose someone to replace her in last fall's cabinet shuffle. I have to tell you that I am extremely pleased that he chose me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Next we have Ms. Ashton.

Ms. Ashton, thanks for joining us at committee today. The floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Excellent. Let's try that again.

Mr. Minister, just today the IPCC released a new report warning that climate change, which is already deadly, is about to get much worse. Your government has acknowledged that urgent action is needed to tackle climate change. Today, you have talked about the need to invest in infrastructure relating to climate change.

We also, though, have an infrastructure bank that could be doing this work, investing in infrastructure that mitigates climate change, as well as helping communities adapt to this devastating reality. This committee, however, has heard that Canada's infrastructure bank is running on a parallel track, focused on profiteering and not helping those in greatest need.

My private member's bill, Bill C-245, aims at shifting the mandate of the Infrastructure Bank, by using public ownership to mitigate climate change and by investing in infrastructure desperately needed by vulnerable communities, such as indigenous and northern communities that are already paying the price of climate change. These projects focus on mitigation as well as adaptation, including the transition from diesel to green energy, to all-weather road construction, to forest fire protection, to public transit and so on.

Given the sense of urgency once again reiterated today, will you and your government support Bill C-245 ?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Ashton, thank you for the question. I'm happy to see you.

We've taken note of it. The government has not yet taken a position with respect to that private member's bill. We have a process. It's the cabinet operations committee that I chair that looks at different private members' bills. We've certainly taken note of it, but the government has made no decision yet with respect to that. I'm happy to continue the conversation with you as well.

I recognize that the Canada Infrastructure Bank has to really step up in helping, and not only large projects...whether they're transit projects or green energy projects.... In Atlantic Canada there's the Atlantic Loop, which would potentially bring renewable energy to maritime provinces, for example. Those are megaprojects where the bank, we hope, can play a constructive role in Canada's fight against climate change.

To your point, you represent a huge swath of northern Canada. I've visited your riding as well a couple of times, and I think what you said is absolutely true. The tools the Government of Canada has to help smaller indigenous communities or smaller community groups, municipalities, with their climate change mitigation and adaptation needs have to be varied.

It's great that the Infrastructure Bank can buy zero-emission buses. It's great that we can work on big projects like the Atlantic Loop, but I do recognize and agree with you that there is a gap that I'm certainly happy to commit to try to close with those smaller community projects. I think the green and inclusive community buildings fund will, hopefully, in indigenous communities and some smaller remote communities, offer at least a start in that work.

I'm happy to continue the conversation with you, including projects in your own riding, Ms. Ashton, where we can hopefully suit up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ashton, and Minister.

Finally, we have Mr. Jeneroux followed by Mr. Badawey.

Mr. Jeneroux, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us virtually here today.

I want to drill down a bit on some of the comments and questions coming from Ms. Lantsman's opening round of questions.

You stated that there were $6.7 billion in private and institutional investment. According to your website, it's actually $7.2 billion, so I'd hate to think that you lost half a billion, Minister. I'll leave it to you to explain the difference.

Then you go onto the website and look at who some of these partners are and it's very clear that there are other municipalities. For example, for the New Westminster bridge, the partner is actually the Government of Canada, which is you, Minister. The other interesting one is the Montreal international airport REM station. Again, the Government of Canada is the partner.

In my own city of Edmonton, the partner for the zero-emission buses is the City of Edmonton. There's only one taxpayer. Does that mean me as a taxpayer and the City of Edmonton are doubly on the hook for the Infrastructure Bank investment?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I would think, as a property taxpayer in the city of Edmonton, you would really be doubly on the hook if the Government of Canada didn't partner, for example, with the City of Edmonton on some of the zero-emission buses or transit priorities. Often, as you correctly note, the partner in some of these large-scale projects—particularly for public transit and light rail—is often other orders of government, such as municipal or provincial governments.

As for your specific question about the Infrastructure Bank, I'm going by the briefing notes that I was given, but the deputy minister joining me is very familiar with the Infrastructure Bank funding of different projects. Mr. Campbell could answer your question precisely right now if you'd like.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Getting something back to the committee would be helpful for all of us, Minister.

If the solution is to partner with other levels of government, then you can do that as an infrastructure announcement. I think I asked the same question at committee back in 2018. Since 2015, the Infrastructure Bank has had $19.4 billion invested in it. How has it really helped get any infrastructure built in this country?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

For example, it has done a very significant investment with the Six Nations of the Grand River in Ontario in energy storage. The Infrastructure Bank has made significant investments in rural broadband in Manitoba. We talked about zero-emission buses across the country and energy retrofits with SOFIAC in Quebec. I know that the Infrastructure Bank is working with utilities in Atlantic Canada around a green energy loop.

I don't share your pessimism in terms of the bank's ability to add value. I do agree with you that it has to also raise its game in terms of the private investment that it attracts. It shouldn't be another line of programming from an infrastructure department. I take your comment entirely at face value. I think the bank, and my job as minister responsible, is to tell the board of directors and the chair of the bank that the government has certain expectations for them in terms of policy direction.

You're absolutely right that leveraging greater private investment has to be one. I totally get your point that if all of the partners end up being other public entities.... It doesn't mean the mayors don't try to unload a whole bunch of different projects across the country on the Government of Canada, but at the end of the day, as you say, it's the residents of a city or the taxpayers in a particular jurisdiction that are contributing in different ways. In some cases, we can leverage other investors.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I know we have a solid chair in Mr. Schiefke who will cut me off, so in the 30 seconds I have, would you be able to get back to the committee, Minister, on how much of that $6.7 or $7.2—whatever is the accurate number—is actually private investment? Looking at the website, it's really clear that a lot of it is just municipalities and other levels of government.

Thank you.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Absolutely, Mr. Jeneroux. I'll make sure that we get back to the chair of the committee with a detailed breakdown of what in my notes says is $6.7 billion. If it turns out to be half a billion more, great, but I'll happily get that breakdown for you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jeneroux.

Minister, I want to give you a huge thank you for appearing before our committee today. It is always a pleasure. You are welcome back any time.

Feel free to disconnect. I know that you have other things going on today.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I look forward to seeing all of you.