Transport Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Minister.

Colleagues, we will go to the second part of our meeting. We have witnesses appearing from Infrastructure Canada: Ms. Kelly Gillis, deputy minister, infrastructure and communities; Alison O'Leary, senior assistant deputy minister, communities and infrastructure programs; Erin Lynch, associate assistant deputy minister, communities and infrastructure programs; Nathalie Bertrand, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer for corporate services; Glenn Campbell, assistant deputy minister, investment, partnerships and innovation; and Gerard Peets, assistant deputy minister, policy and results.

To begin the third round of questioning today, we will go to Ms. Lantsman.

Ms. Lantsman, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you to the officials for joining us virtually today.

I want to go back to the Infrastructure Bank. We heard from the minister. We know that projects take time, so we can dispense with that. The CIB has been in existence now since November of 2017. That's five years. Can you tell us how many projects—just the number—this delivery model has actually built?

[Kelly Gillis]

The Canada Infrastructure Bank is involved, as the minister mentioned, in 33 different projects. A number of them are under way. As we know, large infrastructure projects do take time to complete, so none are completed, but infrastructure projects like the REM in Montreal are well advanced.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you very much. So “none” is the answer. I just wanted to make that clear for all Canadians, because I don't think we got that in the last round.

I want to know if the department thinks that this delivery model, which has built absolutely no projects, is seen and viewed as successful.

[Kelly Gillis]

What I can say is that the demand for infrastructure across the country is large. When we look at the tools to be able to get the infrastructure we need as a country, we need to look at different models in place and different tools at hand. The Canada Infrastructure Bank is one tool of many that we have.

The Canada Infrastructure Bank looks at trying to bring in both private sector and institutional investment. I know that StatsCan has a different definition for public versus private and institutional that goes into the public domain. I think that is an important tool so that the building of the infrastructure is not completely on the tax base of Canadians. That's where the innovative model of the Canada Infrastructure Bank comes in.

They are advancing, and have made progress in the last couple of years on different projects and an array that the minister has [Technical difficulty—Editor] to advance the needs of Canadians and the need for infrastructure in this country.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

I want to stay on this. We heard claims of a bold multiplier effect of 2:1, 4:1 and even higher, of all of this private capital that you've talked about just sitting and waiting to jump on big projects. But what we are seeing now is essentially a version of corporate welfare.

The shadow critic for infrastructure raised the issue of Fortis Inc. with the previous minister. That was a company that made $9 billion a year—but we could cite almost any of the projects on the list. My predecessor asked the former minister—she didn't answer, so I'm wondering if we can get an answer from officials—about that multiplier effect, about private capital, and about whether you think this is at all successful, given there is so little in terms of accomplishment of actual projects or private capital coming into what you call a “bank”.

[Kelly Gillis]

As we look at the infrastructure that we need, the Infrastructure Bank has advanced on 33 different projects. They are bringing in institutional capital. We do want institutional capital investing in Canadian infrastructure. It brings in a different discipline in terms of innovation and a risk transfer to different projects that are important. As I mentioned, it's one tool of many that we have for advancing infrastructure needs within the country.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

I want to just change gears, because I know that I just have a few moments left.

Ms. Ashton raised the green and inclusive community buildings program, or perhaps it was the minister who did in response to her question. The program was established early last year, and the applicants were required to submit their proposals at the beginning of July.

Many not-for-profits, including many in the area that I come from in the GTA, had spent thousands of dollars putting together environmental audits to ensure that they met the terms and conditions of this program. They're desperately waiting for decisions. It's been seven months and there is no sign of life from any official in the department. Will there be a call to any of these not-for-profits? Has the minister asked for an update from the department on any of these applications that not-for-profits, particularly in the area that I come from, have spent thousands of dollars trying to put together?

[Kelly Gillis]

That particular program has been seen as extremely relevant and therefore popular, so we have hundreds of applications that are in the final throes of being evaluated. I would think that you will see, in due course, some outcomes and some decisions on that particular program. There was a handful made just before the election, and then more will be coming in the weeks and months to come.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Ms. Lantsman.

The next six minutes goes to Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Rogers, the floor is yours.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the officials with us today. It was great to see the minister participate in our committee work today as well. Certainly, we always look forward to having a minister visiting and providing information to this committee.

For the officials, I have a few questions relating to rural and northern communities and many of the challenges they face when it comes to infrastructure and other issues of trying to stay in touch with today's world.

How is the Canada Infrastructure Bank helping to attract investment to address challenges with broadband across the country, specifically with a focus on rural and northern communities, Ms. Gillis?

[Kelly Gillis]

One of the priority areas of the Canada Infrastructure Bank is to invest in broadband for rural and remote communities. They have made some investments like the Manitoba fibre project and have made agreements with Quebec and Ontario, so they have a pillar, and they're looking at approximately $3 billion of investment in that particular area.

As the minister so articulately outlined, the importance of broadband for Canadians is an area that the Canada Infrastructure Bank is advancing and continues to advance.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you very much.

I was fortunate to be able to participate in an announcement with the Minister for Rural Economic Development, Ms. Hutchings, in Newfoundland and Labrador just this past week where we partnered with the province on a $136 million investment—$116 million federally and $20 million by the province—to advance Internet services across the province. It's a great investment that we're very excited about.

Many smaller and rural communities, particularly, have sometimes been discouraged from applying for funding due to the complexity of applications and the process. It's a very laborious process with a lot of challenges for small municipalities with not a lot of staff to assess these. How are you working with smaller and rural municipalities to ensure that they can apply for programs such as the green and inclusive community buildings fund, and how do you ensure the fairness and accessibility of these programs for the smaller groups, municipalities and indigenous communities?

[Kelly Gillis]

That is a really important question, and I know the minister is quite keen on making sure that we have the appropriate tools and support for smaller communities. One example of that was within our rural transit fund. It's a new fund that's dedicated solely to rural communities and it has a planning component to it, so we're giving grants of up to $50,000 for smaller communities to think about and design how transit can work within their particular communities.

There are other programs, like our green and inclusive buildings program. There are programs that are much smaller, in our components streams, that are for smaller projects of under $3 million. There's a lighter application process so that smaller communities can access the fund in a more streamlined way.

We are constantly looking at our programming and adjusting accordingly, as we did with our disaster mitigation and adaptation program. In our first round of $2 billion, all projects had to be a minimum of $20 million. That wasn't accessible to smaller communities. They rarely have projects of that magnitude, so in the second top-up of $1.4 billion, half is dedicated to smaller projects from $1 million to $20 million, and there's 10% set aside for indigenous communities.

Those are some of the ways that we're making sure that what we're doing is relevant and accessible to smaller communities, and we'll continue to try to focus and adjust accordingly as smaller communities need the infrastructure to be able to support their communities going forward.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you for that. As a former president of the municipal sector in Newfoundland and Labrador, I understand the many challenges that a lot of these very small municipalities face. That's why the question is important, and I'm happy to see that we're making progress.

I have one final question. In the minister's mandate letter, there's a reference to the Newfoundland and Labrador fixed link. The Canada Infrastructure Bank signed a memorandum of understanding with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador with a goal of expediting further capital and user assessment. The CIB was aiming to complete this study by the winter of 2022.

I wonder if you could give us any kind of update on where that study is, and if it's still on target for the winter of 2022.

[Kelly Gillis]

To answer that particular question, yes, that study is under way and I understand that it is on track to be completed this winter. Discussions between Newfoundland and the Canada Infrastructure Bank are under way.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you very much. I'm happy to see that the target date is being met.

Mr. Chair, are we...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You're just about done, Mr. Rogers. You have 10 seconds left.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Given that, I'll forego the next question. There's not enough time.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rogers.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Gillis, I was talking to Minister LeBlanc earlier about the Active Transportation Fund, for which no agreement has yet been announced. The same thing could be said, in a broader sense, about the money for public transit. An Infrastructure Canada press release on its website states: “[...] discussions are ongoing between the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec regarding the implementation of this program in Quebec [...]”

Do you know when this agreement might be reached? Will there be an announcement about it soon?

[Kelly Gillis]

Thank you for the question.

As the minister mentioned, there are discussions going on and we are trying to move them forward. There was one with Minister LeBel recently. I don't have an expected date for an agreement, but discussions are ongoing.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I am asking you this question because I have the impression that, every time the federal government announces infrastructure programs, everyone in Canada has access to them before Quebec. This ends up causing problems.

To take this thought a step further, I would mention that not long ago, the Auditor General of Canada was critical of the Investing in Canada plan, saying that Infrastructure Canada had failed to report satisfactorily on the progress of the distribution of funds, because it was not done quickly enough.

Don't you think that the policies in place at Infrastructure Canada are hindering the flow of funds to Quebec?

[Kelly Gillis]

Under the Investing in Canada infrastructure program, the bilateral agreement we have with Quebec is progressing very well. We have already announced many projects in Quebec. About 56% of the funds have already been approved for projects. So, it's progressing very well in terms of the investment plan.

As for the new programs, discussions are underway, as the minister mentioned.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you for your reply.

However, when we look at things closely, the picture seems to be different. The Auditor General still said it wasn't working. We talked about the Canada Infrastructure Bank earlier, and we saw that the projects seem to be having trouble getting off the ground as well.

There is also the fact that there have been several ministers...there was Mr. Sohi, then Mr. Champagne, then Ms. McKenna, and now it's Mr. LeBlanc. We feel there is no stability in the department.

Is it the constant change of ministers that has created these problems or is it a structural problem within Infrastructure Canada?