Transport Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Welcome to the sixth meeting of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, November 25, 2021. Members can attend in person or using the Zoom application.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all the meeting participants that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on January 28, 2022, to remain healthy and safe, the following is recommended for all those attending the meeting in person.

Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain two-metre physical distancing, whether seated or standing; everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks which provide better clarity over cloth masks are available in the room. Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces such as the desk, chair and microphone with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting. I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on January 31, 2022, the committee is meeting today to study the mandate letter of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, Infrastructure and Communities.

Appearing today is the minister himself, the Honourable Dominic LeBlanc.

Minister, it is a pleasure to have you appear before committee today. We know that the members are very much looking forward to asking you their questions and so without further ado, I would like to turn it over to you to provide your introductory remarks.

However, prior to doing so, Minister, I see there is a hand raised by Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my apologies for interrupting.

I have a procedural question. I noticed that at our last appearance by a minister, the Minister of Transport, the way the questioning by members took place essentially treated the minister's appearance and the appearance of the department officials as one panel, and Monsieur Barsalou-Duval and I only had two and a half minute rounds of questioning for the officials.

It's a departure from the way this committee was working in the last Parliament. I just wonder if you could consider treating the officials as a separate panel, giving the NDP and the Bloc a six-minute round at the beginning of that panel.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Do I have the consent of the committee to make those arrangements?

Okay.

Thank you very much Mr. Bachrach.

Apologies, Minister, and I turn the floor over to you. Welcome once again.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you will see, I am joined by our Deputy Minister, Kelly Gillis, and a series of senior officials from the department. You saw some of them before the meeting opened. They are both with me for the next hour. Mr. Bachrach's point is a good one, and, of course, they are available to offer precision for colleagues who may have questions with respect to specific programs or expenditures within the infrastructure portfolio.

Mr. Chair, let me begin by apologizing for cancelling at the last minute two weeks ago. It was the Monday that the Emergencies Act was proclaimed. I participated in a first ministers meeting with the Prime Minister and then had a number of calls with different premiers to follow up. I regret doing that. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, but there was no way on that particular morning that I would have been able to attend the committee, so I apologize.

Finally, if I seem a bit short of breath and if I perhaps have a red face, colleagues cannot construe that in any way as proof of the truthfulness of what I'm about to testify. You talked about people with symptoms, Mr. Chair. Last week, I developed what felt like COVID symptoms in New Brunswick. I went through a series of COVID tests and it turns out I developed a form of pneumonia that can affect immunocompromised people. It's entirely treatable, but I had a difficult weekend. This is why I'm not in Ottawa this week, but it's expected to run its course over the next week or 10 days. I wanted colleagues to know that I'm not short of breath because I'm nervous, or even perhaps because I'm not in excellent physical shape; it's simply because I ended up with this lung infection.

Mr. Chair, I welcome this opportunity to discuss the Prime Minister's mandate letter to me. I'm happy to do so with the team from Infrastructure Canada who are working with me to deliver the results that Canadians and the Prime Minister expect.

Delivering results means establishing, maintaining and leveraging partnerships across the country. It's partnerships with other orders of government—municipalities, provincial and territorial governments—that are critical for us to get the work done that we must get done. Through collaboration with different orders of government, we believe we're in the best position to improve the quality of life for Canadians, and we will continue to build a country and the country's infrastructure that work for everyone.

This means that support must be provided for major nation–building projects that will enable us to better connect. We are talking about transformative projects, such as the Toronto waterfront revitalization, as well as connections, such as the Gordie Howe international bridge project, in Windsor, Ontario, whose construction is well advanced. This is about planning key infrastructure projects, such as the Bonaventure Expressway redevelopment.

Mr. Chair, we keep Canadians moving forward in a number of ways, including investments in transit that will reduce greenhouse gas emissions, provide health benefits and better serve disadvantaged groups, including women, seniors, youth and those on low incomes.

Our support toward the purchase of 17,000 new buses, including 7,469 green, reduced-emission buses, has significantly increased the capacity of Canadian municipal public transit systems.

We will work with provinces, territories, municipalities, indigenous communities and other stakeholders to design a permanent public transit fund. I have held fruitful discussions with a number of mayors of Canadian cities and with representatives from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

While promoting greener transit, we are implementing a number of additional measures to enhance Canadians' climate resilience.

Since 2018 our government has committed almost $3.4 billion through the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund to help communities remain resilient in the face of natural disasters triggered by climate change. To date we've announced over $1.9 billion in funding for 69 projects across the country to mitigate threats of natural disasters, such as floods, wildfires and drought.

The work of the climate resilient built environment initiative and the standards to support resilience in infrastructure programs across the country are helping to increase public awareness of the existing tools and resources available to enhance the resilience of public infrastructure.

Mr. Chair, we've seen this across the country, for example, in Mr. Bachrach's province of British Columbia. I think all Canadians were surprised at how quickly and how devastatingly critical public infrastructure can be damaged, leading to economic and social consequences for millions of people who depend on that infrastructure. We're obviously working with the Government of British Columbia, as one example, with respect to how we can rebuild a more resilient climate-adapted infrastructure, and those conversations are very encouraging.

Mr. Chair, the green and inclusive community buildings program will help build more community buildings and improve existing ones, making them more energy efficient, reducing carbon emissions, enhancing climate resilience, and increasing accessible and inclusive spaces.

In budget 2021, we announced a $200‑million investment over three years in the natural infrastructure fund. This is a program for funding natural and hybrid infrastructure projects in Canadian communities in order to enhance climate change resilience, improve environmental quality and protect biodiversity.

As we look ahead, Canada's first national infrastructure assessment will provide an evidence-based and expert-driven assessment of Canada's infrastructure needs over the coming decades to tackle climate change, support our quality of life in big communities and in small ones, and enable our economy to flourish. The assessment will better enable infrastructure planning and will be available to all orders of government as well as the private sector to help them make informed decisions on future investments.

Throughout, we are leveraging partnerships, both public and private, and developing innovative means to get infrastructure built for Canadians. These include, for example, the Canada Infrastructure Bank, the $10-billion growth plan that involves investments in five key sectors: public transit, clean power, green infrastructure, broadband, and trade and transportation projects.

We're committed to supporting families and communities to ensure that infrastructure all across the country is safe and reliable while protecting people as well as we can from the effects of climate change and creating economic opportunities and quality of life, from housing to active transportation.

Mr. Chair, I'm looking forward to a conversation with colleagues.

Thank you for taking the time to hear from me. I apologize once again for what happened two weeks ago. I am very happy to see you and I am looking forward to seeing you in person soon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I think I speak on behalf of all members of this committee when I wish you a speedy recovery.

The first round of questions goes to Ms. Lantsman.

Ms. Lantsman, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you.

Thanks for joining us, Minister. I do hope you feel better and that you're back in person when you are good and ready.

I want to zero in on the departmental results report from 2020-21. The actual spending on public infrastructure was 30% below the planned spending. That's a shortfall of $2.8 billion, yet the administrative spending of the department was increased by almost the same amount. I want to know why your department is spending billions more and ostensibly achieving much less.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Lantsman, thank you for the question.

Obviously, over the last two years, a number of federal and provincial infrastructure investments have been affected by COVID—the planning, some of the work and some of the costs have gone up. I've had these conversations with provincial ministers, premiers and mayors across the country. I acknowledge that some of the investments in infrastructure projects across the country have been made more complicated. The good news is that we continue to approve thousands of projects and proceed in collaboration with municipalities and provinces in a way that we think is important.

With respect to the administrative costs of the department, the infrastructure department is a relatively new department. In my briefings with officials last fall, when I assumed the portfolio, I was surprised by the extent of the policy capacity in the department, such as the things that Environment and Climate Change Canada was expecting us to act on as part of a tackling climate change plan. Some of the internal capacities had to be built into the department. That may explain some of these administrative costs.

If you'd like, Ms. Lantsman, the Deputy Minister could perhaps give you a very clear answer on that right away.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes, that would be. good.

Firs, I want to make it clear that the administrative costs and the policy capacity accounted for some of the $2.2 billion, because Canada's total expenses jumped from $5.5 billion to $7.7 billion in 2021, but no infrastructure was actually built. I'll continue those questions, but if I'm hearing this correctly, then $2.2 billion, or at least some of that $2.2 billion, is administrative costs for policy capacity in the department.

[Kelly Gillis, Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Communities, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Perhaps I can add to that.

During that particular period of time, we also adjusted our programming to create something called a “COVID stream”. During that time, we changed our terms and conditions to have projects to a maximum of $10 million to be COVID-resilient while we're living in this particular environment. We approved almost 2,000 projects worth $2 billion, so a high volume of projects went through.

However, because they were about changing infrastructure to allow for social distancing, putting in ventilation and HVAC, they were lower value projects, with a maximum total of $10 million—but a very high volume went through the department. We saw the flow and the volume coming through at a much higher pace, but the value was not as high for each individual project. That also accounts for some of the workload within the department during that particular period of time.

Since COVID came into place, we've approved 4,500 projects, worth $15.5 billion. There's a lot of economic activity going on.

Thank you.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Knowing that I don't have that much time, I want to zero in on the following.

Minister, at the end of your opening remarks, you mentioned the Canada Infrastructure Bank. I want to point out that the Parliamentary Budget Officer released findings last March that projects partnered with this bank have absolutely no private sector investment committed to date. That includes projects listed on your own website. Those are the PBO's words, not mine.

Can you tell me, Minister, how much private sector investment or private sector dollars have been invested in this process to date?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Ms. Lantsman, that's a very good question. The Canada Infrastructure Bank has advanced 33 projects to date, committed over $6.3 billion of Infrastructure Bank capital and attracted an additional $6.7 billion in private and institutional investment.

I'm happy to get you the exact breakdown of the private versus the institutional, but that $6.7 billion is both private investment and institutional investments. I'm thinking of some utilities in Atlantic Canada, for example, that might be provincial crown corporations, but that may have used the Infrastructure Bank.

We can get you a list if you would like from the Infrastructure Bank. I'm happy to provide that.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Given how slowly the Infrastructure Bank projects have come to fruition, or not come to fruition in terms of their completion—though I do understand that some of them take a very long time—would you say that the Infrastructure Bank, in terms of what it was set out to do, is a success?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Give a 20-second response, please, Minister.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Yes, we think it is. We think it's part of the mix of tools that will help Canada for a generation build the kind of public infrastructure it needs. Whether it's broadband access in Manitoba, transit access in some big cities or potential green energy projects in Atlantic Canada, like the Atlantic Loop, we think the Infrastructure Bank is part of the mix of tools that a government can use to leverage other partnerships, but also contribute in a way that Canadians expect us to in order to build that infrastructure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Iacono, go ahead for six minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, had you not mentioned it, we wouldn't have been able to tell you were feeling a bit under the weather. It is always a pleasure to see your great smile.

Minister, the maintenance, modernization and development of infrastructure for the well-being of all Canadian communities are at the heart of your department's mandate.

In part of my riding, work on the Highway 19 extension project was able to begin after our government invested $260.4 million.

Can you explain to us the importance of that kind of a project and the resulting benefits?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Iacono, thank you for your comments. Of course, I would have liked to join you in person, but maybe next time.

You mentioned your riding, in Quebec. You are absolutely right. Traffic congestion significantly impacts not only greenhouse gas emissions, but also people's quality of life, be it in your area or in other regions. This is often an issue that affects people who live in the suburbs of big Canadian metropolises.

We feel that the Highway 19 extension is the perfect example of the government working with other levels of government to find a way to improve public infrastructure efficiency, but also to reduce traffic congestion and give residents a more effective and safer way to participate in the economy or in other social activities.

It is a perfect example of the type of project we would very much like to make progress on, be it in Quebec or in other provinces. I am very encouraged by the conversations I have had so far with my provincial counterparts and with the mayors of a number of Canadian cities.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

A biomethanization plant is supposed to be built in my riding. Can you tell us what the benefits will be for Laval residents, both economically and in terms of quality of life?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, Mr. Iacono, you are much more familiar than I am with the details at the regional or local level.

That said, this is an example where Infrastructure Canada and potentially the Canada Infrastructure Bank, which Ms. Lantsman brought up earlier in one of her questions, have an opportunity to participate in the funding of public infrastructure, which is essential for these kinds of investments.

Of course, the private sector invests a huge amount of its own money in a number of industries or industrial complexes in Canada. Often, the infrastructure around a project that is important for the regional economy is key for unlocking private investment that may contribute to the local economy. That is actually often the topic of my discussions with Canadian ministers or mayors.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

In my riding of Alfred-Pellan, there is a real need for community facilities for young people, but also for seniors. What are the department's commitments in terms of carrying out those kinds of projects during your term?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

I completely agree with you, Mr. Iacono. You have actually shown continued leadership for a number of years on the national seniors caucus.

I am seeing an essential need in terms of community facilities for young people and seniors across Canada, in cities large and small. I represent a fundamentally rural riding where the largest municipalities probably has 5,000 people. Community groups or small municipalities often lack the means to manage existing infrastructure, be it in terms of improving accessibility for people with a disability or reducing the energy costs of maintaining and operating that kind of community infrastructure.

Over the next two years, we will invest $1.5 billion specifically to build that inclusive community infrastructure. Moreover, we will focus on what we can do to reduce the emissions from that infrastructure, which was often built 30, 40 or 50 years ago and which will benefit tremendously from the investment.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I have one last question for you, Minister.

What measures is the government taking to ensure that infrastructure projects are effective in reducing greenhouse gas emissions?

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Again, Mr. Iacono, that is a critical question. It's one that our department spends an enormous amount of time focusing on.

Our department has participated in elaborating Canada's climate change plan, and therefore a number of the emission targets, a number of pathways, to get Canada to meet and exceed its international commitments in terms of greenhouse gas come from investments in public infrastructure. Obviously, transport en commun, transit, is an obvious one, but to your previous question, smaller community projects that can be net zero or much more energy efficient also contribute.

We're very much embedded in the government's effort to fight climate change. A lot of the different programs are based on analyses of what we can invest to reduce the overall footprint of particular infrastructure projects.

Thank you for the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, go ahead for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister. We are happy to be hearing from you today. I hope your health will improve over the coming weeks.

In your opening remarks, you said that adapting to climate change was important for you and that you have made investments for that purpose. Of course, those initiatives are quite commendable and necessary. However, I have noted that those investments were used mostly in situations where there was some sort of extreme pressure on infrastructure or during climate disasters.

You said you represent a predominantly rural riding. My riding also has largely rural parts that are also affected by climate change, but not of the natural disaster variety.

I will talk to you about a specific case involving ferries. At certain locations on the Richelieu River, where there were ferry crossings in the summer, there were ice bridges in the winter. Management of those ice bridges has become impossible, so people can no longer cross the river to get to the other shore in winter.

I searched through programs available at Infrastructure Canada, at Transport Canada and at other departments, but I have not managed to find a fund that would be used to remedy those kinds of issues.

Is your government interested in those types of situations and could there be relevant initiatives in the future?