Transport Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[Michel Bourdeau]

Yes, I completely agree with that.

Consider the length of the trains, for example. The distance between the two exits in our town is at least two kilometers. It takes a very long train to obstruct both at the same time.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

So, for safety reasons, you think limits should be placed on the length of trains.

Is that correct?

[Michel Bourdeau]

Yes, that's correct.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

You also said you'd like the municipalities to be informed of the nature of the goods being transported within their boundaries. The Boucherville representatives also raised that point when they testified here.

When you submit that request to the railways, what reasons do they give for not informing you?

[Michel Bourdeau]

The excuse they often give us is that they can't do it. They also raise safety issues associated with the goods carried by the trains.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I'm going to the Railway Association of Canada now.

Mr. Brazeau, could the railways take additional measures to provide the municipalities with this information so they can equip their fire services?

[Marc Brazeau]

Good afternoon, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

The first responders can use the AskRail mobile app, which provides information on hazardous materials transported by the trains.

The information in question is quite confidential and is forwarded only to first responders who have completed the training provided by TRANSCAER, which is an awareness initiative offered to first responders. The training is free of charge and organized by the Railway Association of Canada and the Chemistry Industry Association of Canada.

I can confirm that training was provided to first responders in Mr. Bourdeau's municipality in 2019 and 2021. Our association believes it's important to work with the municipalities and first responders to give them the training they need in the event incidents occur.

The program has been around for many years, and we'd be prepared to work with the mayor and the municipality to provide further training in 2022.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

I seem to recall that the railway company representatives who came and testified before the committee in 2021 had also mentioned the existence of these applications.

I am nevertheless wondering about access to these applications. When the residents of Boucherville came and testified, apparently one only one or two people in the city had access. It's therefore very difficult to use them in practice to monitor things.

Should the railway companies perhaps be more proactive about training users in these applications and making them more available?

[Marc Brazeau]

More can certainly be done in terms of training. By providing proper training to as many first responders as possible, their capacity to respond directly to incidents would be strengthened.

As for information sharing, there is in fact a security component that needs to be protected. We don't want this information in the hands of people who should not have access to it.

The mobile application definitely makes it possible to train more people. Those who have received the training would be able to access it when required. That too would be part of the training.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Everyone remembers the Lac-Mégantic tragedy. This major disaster in Quebec was traumatic not only for the population of Lac-Mégantic, but for all Quebeckers.

Beyond what Transport Canada may have asked for, or what major legislative amendments may have been made, what have the railway companies and the Railway Association of Canada done proactively to ensure that we do not limit ourselves to the regulatory aspects, which are not always fully complied with, and to make more of an effort to ensure that it never happens again?

Has anything concrete been done to address this?

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Could you answer in 15 seconds, Mr. Brazeau?

[Marc Brazeau]

It's a tragedy that still affects us today. However, it gives us guidance too. Over 40 recommendations have been implemented since the tragedy.

Industry stakeholders want to make safety an absolute priority. We have all kinds of programs that support this initiative and the recommendations that have been made.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brazeau.

Next we have Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start with some questions for Ms. Eschuk. Thank you so much for your presentation.

I wanted to start with the topic of safety management systems. This committee has heard quite a bit about safety management systems. They're a tool that the government is fond of employing to manage safety, yet I'm not sure we really understand what they are. In a previous meeting, I described them as safety plans and was corrected by the chair of the TSB.

Could you briefly describe what a safety management system is and the role it plays in regulating rail safety?

[Teresa Eschuk]

Safety management systems are meant to be an additional layer of safety. They're supposed to be an additional layer as a tool for our inspectors to have in their tool box. Transport Canada is not applying them that way; it is making them the main focus of monitoring safety. For years now, we've been calling on Transport to do a review of the safety management systems. What we see is that Transport is devolving its responsibility more to private operators, rather than focusing on prevention, safety and what is dangerous through the SMS inspections. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you.

Transport Canada has been moving towards using audits, but audits only reveal what went wrong; they don't prevent accidents or incidents. Again, safety management is supposed to be there as a tool for our inspectors, to help the companies, not to be the only thing companies rely on.

We'd like to see more random and unannounced inspections of rail companies, operations and equipment, and the hiring of more rail inspectors to ensure compliance with outlined policies and procedures. We feel that Transport Canada has really gone backwards in this regard, rather than forwards.

We would like Transport Canada to have a single, number one priority, and that is safety. It's the safe transport of goods across the country on our rail systems and the safest possible passenger train service in the world. Right now, they work under competing priorities, one of which appears to be reducing the regulatory burden on operators. For Transport to be focused on reducing regulations would appear to be a conflict of interest in terms of what their role as a regulator is.

I'm not sure if that helps.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's great.

In your view, are safety management systems a form of self-regulation?

[Teresa Eschuk]

Yes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's a very simple and short answer. Thank you.

You talked about unannounced on-site inspections by Transport Canada. Why do you feel that is so important?

[Teresa Eschuk]

I'm going to give you an example of when I was with Transport Canada in the civil aviation world. I looked after their operating certificates, mainly the same as with rail.

When our inspectors used to go out and do these inspections, that's when they would catch, or find, issues with the companies' safety programs. When they announce that they have to go, and they have to give them so much notice, it gives the companies time to, for a lack of better words, clean up and hide some of the problems they have been dealing with.

That's why it's so important that the random and unannounced inspections are happening. That's when I used to see a lot of notices of suspensions towards the company—operations were suspended until they fixed these problems. Right now that tool is no longer in place, and it doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies when it comes to the safety of rail.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay. Thanks, Ms. Eschuk.

I would like to switch now to Mayor Bourdeau.

Mayor Bourdeau, I found your testimony very interesting. I also come from a small community that has a rail line going through it. We have heard from others in the municipal sector with similar concerns to the ones you expressed.

Around the issue of fire protection, should the fire departments of small communities such as yours be responsible for responding to major fire incidents related to rail transport?

[Michel Bourdeau]

We definitely need to do it, but it's important to have the expertise and training required to deal with incidents like these.

Mr. Brazeau said earlier that in 2021, training had been provided in my region. For the four towns I mentioned earlier, nothing was done in terms of training. I'm sure about that. Maybe in Vaudreuil, but nothing was done in Terrasse-Vaudreuil, Île-Perrot or Pincourt.

It would be helpful to contact Mr. Brazeau to have this training given to our firefighters, because they are the first responders whenever an incident occurs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

You have 40 seconds, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have a related question with two parts.

Should municipal taxpayers be on the hook for funding fire protection related to rail transport? Secondly, are the taxes paid by the railway to your community sufficient to deal with the risks and impacts that rail transport poses?

[Michel Bourdeau]

Definitely not. I can assure you of that. We need only look at the invoice for the Lac-Mégantic tragedy. Forget about it.

At Terrasse-Vaudreuil, We have a budget of $2.5 million. Our fire services alone need $250,000 to operate.

Because the railways go through the municipality, we can't share with another town because we never know what might happen. I have to use my municipality's funds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Thank you, Mr. Bourdeau.

Ms. Lantsman, the floor is yours. You have six minutes.