Transport Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[Michel Bourdeau]

Yes, that's right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is now yours. You have two and a half minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to pick up where I left off, with Ms. Eschuk, about some of the legislative changes. You mentioned whistle-blowing protections as a key legislative change. Are there other legislative changes that you feel would strengthen the rail safety environment in Canada?

[Teresa Eschuk]

I'm going to defer to my political adviser, Mike Martin, to answer that.

[Mike Martin, Policy Advisor, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees]

We would see the changes necessary that could be done administratively first, before you even went through legislation. There are many things that can be done right now, such as increasing the penalties for operators and incidents of violations. Those can be done without legislation.

The unannounced inspections versus audits can be done without legislation. The alternate routing for shipping by rail that the mayor talked about, with municipalities needing alternate routes for rail traffic to go through, could be done without legislation.

Quite honestly, there needs to be a partnership, and the partnership needs to be with the railway operators and the levels of government. The reason it hasn't moved is that the funding isn't there to make that happen.

Finally, the last piece I'd say around the changes that can be made without legislation is that we need more specialists in terms of the inspections we do in this country. Transport Canada has moved into multimodal inspections, and that's particularly true in the transportation of dangerous goods. TDG inspectors are now expected to inspect all different modes, so they do rail one day and they may do civil aviation another day. What happens is that the expertise gets watered down, and even though these people are very good at their jobs, we need to focus back in on getting experts and specialists to be able to deal with some of the issues that are there already.

There are many things that can be done inside the existing practices that are happening right now. Quite honestly, we've been making the same calls for 20 years, and very little has happened. The changes on the alternate routes have been going on since communities were built and railways were going to go through the communities.

Changes need to be made at the funding and administrative levels, and they can easily be made to improve rail safety in this country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Martin, and thank you very much, Mr. Bachrach.

Next we have Mr. Muys. The floor is yours for five minutes, please.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

Thank you very much to all the panellists who are here today, and thank you for your time.

I just want to echo some of the comments made by colleagues here. Certainly, as a new member of Parliament, I've not had the opportunity to participate in the entirety of this discussion on rail safety.

I, too, am disappointed that CN was not able to accept the invitation, because I think they have an important voice in this, given their footprint across the country, including in my own communities at the western end of the GTA.

Ms. Eschuk and Mr. Martin, we look forward to digesting the report that you've sent as we consider rail safety. In your opening remarks, Ms. Eschuk, you had a number of recommendations, a long list, and you just elaborated on some of those, Mr. Martin.

Just to summarize, if there are maybe three things we could focus on immediately to make up for that gap of 20 years without improvements, what would they be?

[Mike Martin]

Maybe I can start and Teresa can back me up on it. There are so many things that can be done.

I would say that Transport Canada needs to shift back to inspection versus audit. That's what safety management systems did in Transport Canada. As Teresa said earlier, an audit is when you look at what happened after. An inspection helps you prevent things. There's still the same role for the company; it's simply that there's another level of oversight. That was the intention of SMS, and it never happened in the last 20 years.

Also, inspections should be unannounced. Regularly scheduled audits are really good, but unannounced visits.... Let's say your family is coming to visit, and you know they're coming, so you clean your house, but if they come unannounced, then your house is what it is, and people get to see that. I think it's as simple as that.

Also, on the transportation of dangerous goods, that's where people are really worried about the safety of the system. We ship a lot of dangerous goods, and we're very good at it. We have a very good track record on it. We just need to be as good as we can be, and that means we need to focus in on alternate routes. It's a big issue, a big problem and lots of money.

Those are two of the things that can be done easily.

Maybe the third that I can add, and Theresa can add what she needs, is increasing administrative penalties. If you're going to hold people to standards, then they have to pay a price if they don't follow them. They need to be substantial, so that there's an incentive to not make mistakes and people will focus on preventing the mistakes so it doesn't cost them any money.

[Teresa Eschuk]

If I could add one more thing, it comes down to the Transportation Safety Board. Why do we have them if their recommendations aren't going to be implemented?

Kathy Fox testified in front of you in February. In all modes, the recommendations that are made to Transport Canada by the Transportation Safety Board aren't being implemented. Those are the experts at the Transportation Safety Board. Those are the inspectors that go out in all modes; they inspect and they find out why the accident happened.

In order to prevent the accidents happening, Transport Canada needs to seriously take into account the recommendations of the Transportation Safety Board. If it doesn't implement the TSB recommendations, it needs to be accountable and explain why it hasn't.

Thank you.

[Dan Muys, Conservative, Flamborough—Glanbrook, ON]

We have probably only 10 more minutes of this discussion before we move on.

I wanted to ask Mr. Gagner to weigh in again, having observed this entire conversation so far today. As we've heard, BASES is a unique model in Canada, and perhaps in North America. Sarnia leads the way, as it did with responsible care. Good for you.

I'm intrigued by all the things you talked about in terms of emergency preparedness, notification systems, collaboration with the community and the description of the practice events that are going to take place with the cloud of smoke. That sounds like a very good initiative.

What would you say, having listened to all of this conversation, are the frustrations of the mayor and others? How do we take that BASES model and apply that across Canada?

[Vince Gagner]

You look at what is causing the frustration. Typically, that's when people feel like they're not being heard. When there is objective information that people believe is.... When workers, members of the community or first nations believe they have really solid evidence and their opinion says, “This is what we should do,” and there's no response, that's when people get frustrated.

I want to be careful to say that Sarnia is not perfect. However, there are some fundamental things here that I see culturally with our member companies. I see also what you did at the federal level with the E2 regulations that you brought in. That very much aligned with the responsible care and IEC tools that they have, this reaching out to the community.

Regarding my previous comment about it being hard to come up with laws that say you need to listen, that is an example of where you reach out and connect with the community, and the environmental emergency stuff under CEPA is quite effective—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gagner.

Thank you very much, Mr. Muys.

Next we have Mr. Iacono. You have five minutes. The floor is yours.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the panellists for being present.

To respond to Teresa, Transport Canada has completed 90% of the recommendations. The last 10% that have not been completed tend to be accounted for with respect to jurisdictional problems and technological obstacles.

My first question is for Mayor Bourdeau.

Mr. Bourdeau, given that several railway companies run trains on the tracks that run through your town, do you know how safety is ensured and can you provide us with details?

Do you receive details on this from the various companies?

[Michel Bourdeau]

No, not really.

The only information we get comes once a year under the Operation Lifesaver program. People come here one fine morning and hand out brochures about driver safety.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Have you ever asked for information?

[Michel Bourdeau]

Yes we have, but we've never had a reply.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Brazeau.

What new measures in particular should be taken by the regulatory bodies to improve rail safety?

You said earlier that there was a shortage of funds. Can you tell us what specifically should be done?

[Marc Brazeau]

As the mayor pointed out, Operation Lifesaver is an awareness program that has existed for years. It's a partnership between the industry and Transport Canada designed to make people aware of the importance of safety near railway tracks. It's an example of a program that would get municipalities and provinces across Canada more engaged in such initiatives.

We also discussed the safety management system, or SMS, a program that we continue to support through the safety culture initiative.

All these programs are accessible, and we are working closely with all the railway companies in Canada, who have been working closely with the municipalities.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I apologize for interrupting you, Mr. Brazeau, but my speaking time is limited.

Could you send us a list of your suggestions in writing?

When we think about railway companies, we generally think of the giants like CN and CP.

What specific or frequently occurring safety problems arise among the smaller operators, such as those that operate secondary or tourist railways?

[Marc Brazeau]

That's a very good question.

We have been asking the small companies that operate regional and tourist railways for increased and more tangible support.

There are specific programs in the United States for regional railway operators, but there are no such programs in Canada. Small railway operators do not have the same capacity as the major railway companies that operate Class 1 railways. They don't have the same level of resources and they can't reinvest in their systems to the same extent.

These small railway operators across the country need help, and we have been asking the government to support them.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Mr. Brazeau, Once again, I would appreciate it if you could provide these details to the clerk.

[Marc Brazeau]

Okay.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I would also ask you to give us details about what else we could do to improve rail safety.

What do you think are the most relevant criteria for measuring rail safety, and why?

[Marc Brazeau]

As I mentioned earlier, we have set up a working group. We have been working with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada and Transport Canada to obtain information that might be useful.

Apart from that, there is other information we could perhaps share. All of this would help us obtain a better overview of the situation and develop programs that could improve safety.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Are railway police services replacing other police services, or are they complementary

Is there something that prevents the police, like local police services or the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, from investigating railway accidents where warranted?