Transport Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I too want to thank the witnesses today for taking time out of their busy schedules to be here for us.

My first question is for Mr. Brazeau, president of the Railway Association of Canada.

Under the transportation information regulations, as you know, railway companies are required to report specific safety data to Transport Canada on a regular basis. According to the Auditor General's report on rail safety, Transport Canada “did not provide sufficiently detailed guidance to the railway companies on how to report their safety data”.

My first question is this: What do your members tell you about these transportation information regulations?

[Marc Brazeau, President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada]

We actually have a rail safety data group that is working with TSB and Transport Canada to ensure that the methodology works in everyone's favour and is the right methodology to gather the information, and then to ensure that the information is interpreted and defined in the right way.

We are constantly having communication with the regulators and ensuring that if there are any gaps, or if there's any information that is not properly communicated or defined, we are working to enhance that. I'm not confirming that there are any major gaps, but I am saying that we are having dialogue to ensure that any information that we gather is the right information and is to the benefit of everyone.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Do you think the information railway companies have to report to Transport Canada is clear? Are the timelines crystal clear?

[Marc Brazeau]

We've not heard otherwise from our railway members to indicate that this is a major issue. Again, though, we're always looking to enhance how that data is shared and used. We have a working committee made up of the railways, TSB and Transport Canada, that's tackling those issues.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Would you have any suggestions that the government can make?

[Marc Brazeau]

I'll leave that up to the working group, because that's part of what they do. They make sure that if there are any recommendations or any enhancements that can be brought forward, the committee would certainly have those discussions and then it would be presented to the minister for his follow-up and his action.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Is there a timeline for that?

[Marc Brazeau]

I don't believe we're working under any specific timelines.

I can confirm that the committee is meeting regularly. There is ongoing dialogue at all times between the railways, Transport Canada, TSB, and the Canadian Transportation Agency. I can certainly provide assurance to the committee that the level of communication is very high on all issues related to rail safety, policy and the regulatory framework. That's something we take very seriously. I can definitely confirm that this is ongoing and working very well.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you.

My next set of questions is for His Worship Mayor Bourdeau.

I have been a mayor in a community as well, and was a councillor like yourself for many years. I thank you for what you do, because you're the closest to the ground. You probably get questions put to you and feel frustration, which I can relate to. I have many lines that run through my municipality in Essa Township, from high volume to low volume, so certainly there are some concerns.

There was a long time when the train happened to be there and there were always people who felt frustrated. If they were late it was one thing, but we were always concerned that when it came to emergency services that we provided, like yourself, whether fire departments, or ambulance services, the amount of time needed for them to get around was an issue. I know you hear from citizens as well from that perspective, if they have any health issues.

What has your experience been for getting access to safety data reports provided by railway companies to Transport Canada so far?

[Michel Bourdeau]

I honestly have to say it's been tough.

The municipality's fire services receive codes indicating what goods the railway cars are carrying, but we get them after the trains have passed. We need that information before the train arrives, not afterward. We don't need that information once the train has passed. We have to know what's going on in our area if we want to protect ourselves.

I'm 52 years old, and members of my family have been in politics for at least 50 years. As far as I know, no preparedness exercises have ever been conducted with the municipality's fire services in Pincourt, Île-Perrot or Terrasse-Vaudreuil. Those exercises would help protect us. Training should be organized with CP or CN and other stakeholders, but that's never been done.

We get the information on transported goods because we keep requesting it, but we receive it long after the trains have passed. That's obviously a problem. It would be good to get it before then. CP and CN should train the firefighters who work on Île-Perrot to ensure the population is protected.

Honestly, if an incident like the one in Lac-Mégantic occurred, I'd really be afraid for my municipality because I know our firefighters aren't trained to handle that kind of event.

Some will say that other firefighters would come specifically for that kind of incident, but I definitely wouldn't feel safe if it occurred.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you.

[Michel Bourdeau]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dowdall.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bourdeau.

Now we will go to Mr. Badawey.

Mr. Badawey, the floor is yours.

You have six minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to all the presenters this afternoon for coming out and giving us your valuable time.

I want to start out with Mr. Bourdeau.

I'm going to concentrate on the effects, somewhat from railway safety, but more of railway operations on neighbouring communities.

I have this question for Mayor Bourdeau.

Do you find that railway operations have an impact on your community's health and safety?

[Michel Bourdeau]

There are definitely all kinds of impacts. Motorists experience long waits before they can cross the tracks and that stresses them, and trains frequently obstruct the level crossings for an hour or two. So people have to leave home earlier. Their stress levels rise, and that can exacerbate the situation.

Motorists sometimes decide to use the other exit and speed down the town's streets, but they're trapped when they get there too. That raises danger levels in the town. People roll the stop signs and want to drive as fast as possible from place to place to make sure they can enter or leave the town.

People are used to the noise, but the situation has an impact on them from a safety standpoint.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

With that all said, Mr. Mayor, what is your expectation of the railway companies themselves—their operations—for alleviating these health and safety concerns? How do you feel they should be alleviating these concerns?

[Michel Bourdeau]

In the 1990s, my uncle, the mayor of the municipality of Terrasse-Vaudreuil at the time, went to war over the crossing. Now it's 2022, and the issue remains unresolved. Railway transportation is highly profitable, and it would be good if the railways could help construct a viaduct over the crossing or an underpass to improve safety.

There are four railway lines to cross, not two, and that often causes a lot of problems. The first thing to do would be to build a viaduct over the crossing or an underpass.

I would also request training for our firefighters. The number of trains that go through stresses them too. They wouldn't know how to react to a railway incident.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I want to pivot over to the Railway Association of Canada. I would appreciate if Mr. Brazeau would answer these questions. Once again I'm going to concentrate on the effects of railway operations on neighbouring communities.

Mr. Chair, I want to go on record to state that CN declined the committee's invitation to attend this meeting. To say the least, I'm very disappointed about that. It's extremely unfortunate, as I would have only assumed—as a matter of fact, I would have expected—that CN would be interested in working with this committee on behalf of the communities that we all represent, to ensure community health and safety.

Therefore, Mr. Brazeau, you're the closest in attendance today who may remotely reflect on the questions I'm going to ask and perhaps attempt to deliver a response on behalf of at least one of your members.

With that, I will preface my comments by stating this. I represent a community that has been dramatically affected by railway operations—those of CN rail—specifically in the city of Thorold, in the Port Robinson hamlet, where they have a switching yard that's, quite frankly, a lot larger than the operation's geography allows. There is noise, diesel smell and vibration, and there are blocked roadways, 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

Mr. Mayor, I feel your pain, hence the reason for my questioning to you in trying to come to some resolution for the residents who go through this on a daily basis.

I have to ask the association this. You mentioned that you encourage collaboration within communities that are affected by railway operations, so I have to ask you a simple question: How do you do that? More importantly, how do you come to a resolve to ensure the health and safety of residents who are being affected by railway operations?

[Marc Brazeau]

Representatives from CN and CP were not available to join us today, but I just want to note that they did appear in April of last year. We also attempted to appear in May. However, we had some technical difficulties and unfortunately could not present. We are pleased to be here to discuss what the railway industry as a whole is doing to help mitigate noise and disruption in communities we operate in.

Really, what it comes down to is a program that's been around for a number of years. It's a program that needs to get more municipalities and provinces to adopt those standards; that is, the proximity guidelines and the proximity initiatives.

The railways have been around for a long time. In some cases, the railways ran through land or territory first, and then there was buildup around the railways. In co-operation with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, the Railway Association of Canada put together these proximity guidelines, which was really to help municipalities ensure that any growth or urban development near and around railways was done in a safe, responsible way—

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Mr. Brazeau, I apologize. The question was, what are you doing about the problems? I know how they've evolved over time, but what are you doing about the problems that exist right now within municipalities and within communities, in terms of noise, vibration, smells, etc.? What does your association actually encourage railway companies to do to deal with those problems?

[Marc Brazeau]

They work with the municipalities and the urban developers to make sure the proximity guidelines are respected, to make sure there is enough distance between the railways and residences, and that any development and growth around railways is done safely so that we can minimize the risk of noise and trespassing incidents. That's what we are doing.

I can't speak to specific cases, because those would have to be addressed specifically by the railways on a one-by-one basis involving specific examples. The CTA is also engaged in this. If there are noise complaints, residents obviously have an opportunity to go to the CTA, and then there are standards and procedures put in place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Schiefke]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brazeau.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, go ahead for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thought the testimony was very interesting, and I very much appreciate the questions asked so far. I want to note that at the outset.

Mr. Bourdeau, railway lines also cross my riding. Representatives of the town of Boucherville testified before the committee, and my impression after hearing their testimony and yours is that the situation in the two places is quite similar. It's hard to solve rail line problems, and the railway companies don't seem to pay any attention to them.

Do the railway officials listen to your problems when you go to them for solutions? Are you able to make sure the problems get solved?

[Michel Bourdeau]

We're getting results by continuing to talk about them.

However, it isn't always easy to find someone who can give us an immediate answer. Sometimes it takes a week or two for people to call us back or to get a solution to the problem.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Do you think the legislative framework should compel the railway companies to cooperate with the municipalities?