Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2006

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Before we go on, I agree with that. We should move ahead. In terms of some logistics, the local ones, we should ask them to submit.

Secondly, from Australia and the Netherlands, I need to understand how that's going to work, because those are critical. We're trying to learn how to set up an ombudsman, so we shouldn't short-circuit that part of it. I don't know how you want to see that fold into the report, because the report without having the input of other ombudsmen in other countries is not going to be a very productive report, in my mind, and we'll be very much criticized for it.

I'm assuming we're doing this instead of travelling. Is that true?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I don't know if the travelling is—

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I don't know. I'm asking the question. We had consensus to travel. Now I guess we don't have, so we're going to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

It's now up to the opposition. If they want to reintroduce the motion, that's up to them.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

At any rate, we should not do a report without having input from other countries that we were really interested in and had agreed to visit. We need to have that input of how they have set up an ombudsman. We've heard from Ontario. We should hear from some other provinces before a final draft. We need to move on this, but we've got to remember we just started this with this committee this year. There's no reason to take five years, and it won't unless you guys call an election. We can move ahead. But I think we cannot short-circuit and leave out those countries that have ombudsmen we want to gather information from.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay. Mr. Valley next.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I don't believe our travel was solely on ombudsmen. It was on the charter of rights, veterans' rights, all the other things.

I'll throw it out there, and I'll be corrected if I have to be, but I think we need to get the witnesses done before the Christmas break. We have to have something in our hands when we get back here in February, or January 29, whatever day it is, and I would like to know what date that is, so it's not on the 28th.

I would like to think if we wrap up on the 16th, maybe we'll have a month for the people to get the draft report in our hands. Maybe it's important to go to.... If that decision is made, it's going to have to be made in December; it can't be made in January to go in February. It doesn't happen that fast. But I think if there's a decision to go somewhere, we do it with a draft report in our hands. We know what we're talking about, and we have to have some kind of endgame lined up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

To respond, Mr. Valley, I think that reasonably the situation with regard to going to Australia has probably passed, because their summers and winters are different from here, so when we would be available to go, they are no longer in session. That window of opportunity has probably gone now, but we can certainly re-examine it later. That's my guess.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I'm not suggesting we do. It just needed clarification.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

No, I understand.

Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Everything depends on what they want to do on the government's side. In theory, we'll be back in the House on the last Monday in January. That's what appears on the calendar we have. Michel could provide us with the preliminary report in the first week of February, because I don't believe the committee will be meeting on Monday or Wednesday following our return to the House. In general, committee meetings start the following week. Things have gone that way since 1997. That's a first point.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Calm down!

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Now I'd like to go back to what Bev was saying. If our Chair sends a letter to all the ombudsmen of the Canadian provinces, I'm convinced they'll send us the act that governs how they operate.

Michel, you've seen the Quebec Ombudsman's bill, and Mr. Marin has provided us with the Ontario act. So we could have the acts of all the Canadian provinces that have an ombudsman. We could then know how those ombudsmen operate, to whom they report, the content of their acts, how much is set aside for their old age pensions, and how an ombudsman is hired or dismissed. All that's set out in their acts.

In that way, we could get a very good idea of what's going on across Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay.

I'll go to Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Chair, we have a motion before us that talked about different options, and in order to accommodate them, we have to have an amendment to this motion.

The way I read this motion is that we are finished listening to witnesses and so should begin the work on the draft.

So I would like to make a motion to amend: that we hear the delegation from Australia prior to beginning the work on the draft report.

[A voice]

And the Netherlands?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

No, just Australia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'm not sure it has to be amended, Mr. Mayes.

Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

To support my friend Colin, I'm going to ask that the motion be withdrawn. However, before requesting the withdrawal of the motion, committee members must agree to stop hearing witnesses before Christmas. Then we'll continue once we return after the holidays.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I would suggest that maybe the easier thing here is just to consider the motion as it's structured. We all have a general understanding and agreement here that the researcher would provide us a report when we return.

It's understood that Mr. Winzenberg is going to be appearing. We've invited him, he's willing to appear, and I think it's only cordial of us to allow him to do so. We could benefit from it.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Chair, I disagree.

Then this should have a time on it, because it says that basically if we accept this motion right now, we are finished. Is that not right, as you read it?

[A voice]

Yes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

So what I'm saying is that if we're going to listen to another witness, then we had better put a time on it, as of a certain date, when this witness is going to appear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I understand where you are coming from, Mr. Mayes, but it is Monsieur Perron's motion, and I think it has to be considered a friendly amendment.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I could draw out my resolution if you guys give me your consent that we're not having any more witnesses come in after Christmas break. That's my viewpoint.