Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2006

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Now it's my turn to ask a question. We have 53 veterans associations and none of those 53 associations doesn't want to lose its little kingdom. Each wants to be the head of everything and to solve everything. If you want to solve everything, we won't create an ombudsman position.

I'd like the associations to tell us exactly what they want. Currently, they like the government and don't want to displease it. That's not what I want. I haven't come here to please anyone. I want something logical and fair for everyone. I want everyone to be equal, whether they're in British Columbia, Nova Scotia or elsewhere. I want everyone to receive the same services. If there are 53 associations, there are 53 different services, and you get 53 different answers when you phone somewhere. If there were one single ombudsman... Mr. Marin from Ontario receives 25,000 complaints a year, and he conducts six major investigations every year. He has a budget of $9.6 million.

Should we do it or not? If we don't do it, I'm going to stop coming to the committee to talk about an ombudsman. I want you to give me concrete answers. Thank you.

[Tom Hoppe]

You're right, it's a hard position. I have to be careful as an organization not to downgrade any other organization, but let's be real here. There are certain organizations that are at the table involved in the development of policy. Maybe those are the ones that should be involved in the future of this. There are organizations' demographics that are changing that don't support...that are not veterans any more.... Maybe they should be rolled out.

At the end of the day, I think the ombudsman is the one who has to have that control over it. The issues that you will see will not necessarily come from organizations complaining about territorial issues, if I understand your question correctly; they're going to come from veterans being treated by the department, be it under the new Veterans Charter or something to do with SISIP. That's where it's going to come from, not individual territorial fight. I think we can leave that outside of the ombudsman's mandate.

[Larry Gollner]

I agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Shipley, for five minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I just want to go back. Really, then, what you're saying is we want an ombudsman, but when we come to the input and the structure of that you leave that to us.

[Tom Hoppe]

Well, you're doing this in the committee right now. You have people like ourselves coming forward providing evidence, giving you our input. You're probably going to find a common thread from certain organizations on structure and the like. At the end of the day, the ombudsman is going to have to look after veterans. We provide that information. If the bureaucrats want to speak to us, as they just did a few hours ago, and they want us to provide some input, they usually go to the six main organizations that have been working with them and have been providing results for the last number of years.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Are you saying we should be embracing a different list--not necessarily a different one, but an expanded list?

[Tom Hoppe]

You have to look at who's representing who out in the veterans' world. Who's doing what and who's producing results?

Larry.

[Larry Gollner]

I have nothing to add.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I think Mr. Sweet has a comment.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

It's on a different topic, because we're talking about consultation and we'll soon be looking at a veterans bill of rights as well.

Have you viewed the draft of the veterans bill of rights on the Legion's website?

[Larry Gollner]

We trashed that. We did not agree with that. That was the Legion advocating and purporting to speak for people they did not speak for.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Have you drafted anything yourself as a submission?

[Larry Gollner]

Several times. In fact, this afternoon we again went through the department's latest submission, did the same, and said you've made a reasonable start, but it's now back to step two--start again.

They're starting to get the message that the veterans bill of rights has to be in accordance with what the minister has clearly enunciated on more than one occasion, that it will be something that is simple, in bilingual format, that is hanging on the wall of every Veterans Affairs office in the country, so when the veteran comes in the door he or she can say “These are my rights.” Those rights are what the veteran will judge the performance of the bureaucracy on when they're dealing with his or her case. If the veteran feels he or she hasn't been handled properly, then rest assured, they'll be going to the ombudsman.

The minister has spelled it out on half a dozen occasions. The bureaucrats tend to look for the legal approach, and in their first draft that was eleven pages of legal gibberish.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Could you table your submission with our committee?

[Larry Gollner]

We can, but it's in rough form. They gave us a questionnaire of twelve questions that we had not seen until Friday—

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

But you said you'd developed a submission on the bill of rights already.

[Larry Gollner]

We have, but that's been succeeded by this latest round of documents.

When we were here in April, the draft we tabled was met with general consensus around the table. People said it's not perfect but we're quite comfortable with it. Then we made the mistake of going to the legal people. That has taken a few months, and we haven't made a lot of progress since.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'd like to ask you to table with the clerk the original submission, then your re-draft after these questions, if you would, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Now on to Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here and helping us out with this very important project.

Before I go to my questions, your organization is the first one, to my knowledge, to mention the Cold War veterans. One of my constituents, Chuck Miles, has been very interested in there being proper commemoration of the Cold War veterans, many of them on the undercover side of it, and I will make him aware of your efforts.

The fact that we're spending a fair bit of time in hearing from witnesses such as yourselves on the ombudsman sort of suggests that it's a big, complicated thing, but in listening to Mr. Marin and Mr. Côté and others, there are some basic fundamental elements. It's really in the implementation and in the mechanisms, to listen to veterans where this will work or not work.

Do you agree that it's not rocket science, and if it's done right it's not something that takes...? I think even Mr. Gollner said it's a simple bill. Do you think we need to spend a lot more time studying this before we put something on the table?

[Tom Hoppe]

No, I don't think you do. As we said this afternoon to some of the VAC staff, the DND ombudsman is a good starting point today. His mandate, how he's working today, is a good starting point. It's not rocket science and we don't have time. As Mr. Gollner was saying, we're losing 2,500 veterans a month, according to VAC. There is no time. We have to move on with this.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I value your experience in particular, Mr. Hoppe, as a member of DND's ombudsman advisory committee. How long have you been involved there? Can you tell us a little bit about that experience?

[Tom Hoppe]

I've been involved there since 2001. We meet four times per year, unless the ombudsman requests our information. I can't talk about what happens on the committee.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

No.