Evidence of meeting #30 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Colonel  Retired) Donald S. Ethell (Chair, Joint Department of National Defence and Department of Veterans Affairs Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee
Mariane Le Beau  Project Manager, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Department of National Defence
Kathy Darte  Program Co-Manager, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Veterans Affairs Canada
Jim Jamieson  Medical Advisor, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Department of National Defence

9:10 a.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer

Good morning, everyone. Bonjour, tout le monde.

Our chairperson, I'm sure, will be here momentarily. In the meantime, I'll sit in for him.

We have a reduced quorum, so we'll proceed with our witnesses. We're very grateful that our witnesses are here today to discuss the subject at hand. We'd like to welcome Colonel Donald S. Ethell—

Now that the chair is here, I shall go back to my normal spot. When the chair sits down, please feel free to introduce your colleagues, and then carry on in your normal way.

Thank you.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

I take it you've been introduced? I heard somebody say they want to introduce themselves, so I'll let them do that.

9:10 a.m.

Colonel Retired) Donald S. Ethell (Chair, Joint Department of National Defence and Department of Veterans Affairs Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, first of all, thank you very much for inviting us to appear before you today.

As Mr. Stoffer indicated, my name is Don Ethell. I'm the chair of the Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee. With me are the two co-managers, one from DND and one from VAC. Major Mariane Le Beau is the program manager of the program in the Department of National Defence, and Ms. Kathy Darte is the co-manager from Veterans Affairs Canada. They are two of the hardest-working people on behalf of veterans and serving members.

9:10 a.m.

Some hon. members

Hear, hear!

9:10 a.m.

Col Donald S. Ethell

They paid me to say that!

9:10 a.m.

Colonel Retired) Donald S. Ethell (Chair, Joint Department of National Defence and Department of Veterans Affairs Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee

Also with me is Lieutenant-Colonel (Retired) Jim Jamieson, master social worker, and he is the DND medical adviser to the OSISS program.

Can I carry on, sir?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Yes, please.

9:10 a.m.

Col Donald S. Ethell

You have been given a printed version of our brief. It's multi-coloured and it's in PowerPoint format, but it's very easy to read through. We will be referring to that as we go through our brief presentation at the beginning and then of course during the Q and A.

I'll not be reading all of the slides, obviously, but rather we'll just touch on a few of the high points and focus on what's new in the operational stress injuries social support program, the key determinants of its success, and the major challenges that face the organization.

I am sure most of you are familiar with the term “operational stress injury”. At the risk of digressing for a moment, that term in fact is a Canadian invention by the OSISS team, and it's been inherited internationally, which we'll get into when we talk about international activities.

As you know, OSI is not a diagnostic term, but rather a term developed by the OSI social support organization to put focus on the injury and to work towards destigmatizing the condition. The term is now in wide use by clinicians and non-clinicians as a way to encompass all operational-related mental health injuries—and, as I mentioned, nationally and internationally. I'm sure if the question comes up during the question period, these two officers with me here can attest to their participation on international forums in NATO, in Europe, and of course a lot of time in the United States, working with their colleagues who have served in the Iraq war.

The presentation package includes a background of the OSI advisory committee. This group was formed in 2002 and brings together a group of interested people from Veterans Affairs, Defence, veterans organizations, the RCMP, the ombudsman's office at DND, and various mental health professionals three times a year to provide advice to OSISS and feedback to senior management in both sponsoring departments.

The terms of reference are included in your package, but very briefly, it's to provide advice and guidance to the OSISS management team to improve delivery; to help identify systemic gaps or shortcomings in the peer support program; to assist the OSISS management team in coordinating the program; to deliver aspects of the peer support network with respect to agencies and departments; and to actively take part, where and when possible, in raising awareness of the OSISS program. As chair, I emphasize this to all of the committee members, recognizing that we don't have any executive authority, but they're encouraged, as they put it, to spread the gospel in regard to the outstanding success of the peer support program. The composition is 24 members, and they're listed in one of your handouts.

OSISS itself—you'll notice I switch from “committee” to “OSISS”—came into being within DND in the spring of 2001 in response to input from SCONDVA, the Croatia board of inquiry, and the DND ombudsman's office. Shortly thereafter, recognizing the shared responsibility for the welfare of Canadian Forces members and veterans, a partnership was formed with Veterans Affairs Canada.

OSISS was clearly the result of the vision and drive of one officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Stéphane Grenier. He is not here today because he has finished his tenure. He's a PTSD sufferer.

He served in Rwanda with General Dallaire for 10 months. He returned home, recognized he had a problem, but he lived with it. In fact, he was deployed to Cambodia, to Haiti, to Lebanon, and so forth, fighting that problem. Needless to say, at a certain point he did talk to sympathetic superiors, not the least of whom was the then General Dallaire, who was followed by General Couture—may he rest in peace—who became a champion of the OSISS program. By the way, although he's still a PTSD sufferer undergoing treatment, Colonel Stéphane Grenier is serving in Afghanistan as a public affairs officer. He says it's time to get back on the horse, and to his credit that's exactly what he's done. He has been decorated by the Governor General with the Meritorious Service Cross for his drive and initiative in establishing this program.

He's moved on, but he's been ably replaced by Major Mariane Le Beau, who, as I indicated, is an extremely hard-working officer and very dedicated, having spent many years—and has served in Afghanistan. The co-manager, of course, supported Stéphane Grenier from the start. Kathy Darte is one of the originals, as we call her, and works very closely with her colleague in DND.

The mission of OSISS is twofold: to develop social support programs for members, veterans, and their families who have been affected by operational stress, and to provide the education and training that will eventually change the culture toward psychological injuries in the CF. I emphasize “families” because families always have been important to those who have worn a uniform. Having served on 14 separate missions and having had to leave my family behind, for the most part, I can be very sympathetic with the emphasis on family as brought out with the recent passage of the new veterans charter.

The key to effective peer support, which is the heart of the OSISS program, is the initial selection of the right kind of people, the peer support coordinators and, recently, but gathering momentum, and rightfully so, as their peers, the family peer support coordinators. The numbers I will leave to the questions and answers, and they will be answered by my colleagues.

Aside from the basic two-week training course the peer support coordinators and family peer support coordinators always see, the OSISS program runs a far-reaching continuous education phase as well for both those groups, recognizing that they also have a need for self-care, which I'll leave to my colleagues in the Q and A.

In the end, it all comes down to developing trust with the members, veterans, and families who come forward to talk to a peer support coordinator, wherever they may be and wherever they are referred from, technically through DND and VAC. They may meet in an office, or, if they don't like that, maybe they'll meet in Tim Hortons, so they can talk the issues through and make the informal assessment and refer them accordingly, developing trust with members and veterans who come forward, allowing them to proceed at their own pace, and providing a supportive shoulder to lean on. If you wish, we can get into some personal experiences in the Q and A.

It's essential that the peer support workers understand the role they play, understand when to pull back, and be willing to refer the peer to a professional resource, a clinical resource. The danger of the peer support coordinator is burnout, compassion stress, trauma, depression, and physical illness. What is absolutely amazing and a testament to both the quality of the people involved and the level of care provided by both departments in this program is that there have been very few such problems in the five years this program has been running.

There are several new initiatives to talk about in OSISS, which you are welcome to pursue in the question period. The new bereavement peer support initiative delivers support to the immediate families of those who have lost a loved one in military service, again to be delivered by those who have been through a similar event. Notice the emphasis on the word “peer”.

There is considerable international interest in the success of this program, and, as I mentioned, both of the co-managers can talk on these approaches at some length.

The third location “decompression” operation in Cypress provides members rotating out of Afghanistan with an opportunity to spend a few days transiting from a theatre of war to their living rooms, all as part of a significantly enhanced redeployment program. Having personal experience with it, I can assure you that the program is successful. We have dragged in several people who were under my command who had been involved at the massacre sites and so forth. We were not going to send Captain X back to his wife 24 hours later. He had to be decompressed, which meant going away for three or four days and possibly being able to talk the issue through while receiving some peer support and a shoulder to lean on, as I indicated.

We have learned that there are several key determinants to success in a program like this. First, and perhaps most importantly, is the need to involve peers right from the beginning of the program development and policy. An excellent interdepartmental partnership is essential to success, as is the use of a multidisciplinary management team. The emphasis on self-care and realistic boundaries has been another key area.

As I mentioned in the beginning, the recruiting and screening of the right people is essential, and perhaps the area where this program has excelled, in my opinion. To help provide relief for that key group of peer support personnel, recruiting, training, and retaining a network of volunteers is vital.

This is all a fallout of this interdepartmental cooperation from ten years ago, when they were at both ends of the table. I guess they would talk, but since the new veterans charter, or starting with the Canadian Forces Advisory Council and the workups—and I'm getting off the subject here—a number of us in this room have been intimately involved in this process. It's very heartwarming to see that the two departments have come together. In other words, as recommended by the council, it's a seamless approach. That's where we are now, and these two officers here are examples.

In terms of challenges, there are certainly many out there. For example, there are still a number of systemic barriers in place. Some clinicians are still suspicious of non mental health professionals meddling in their business. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but having read some of the transcripts from previous witnesses here, I think you can understand that there is some hesitation by the professionals in regard to the peer support business. On the other hand, others who have experienced the value of working with a peer support coordinator literally sing their praises in both departments.

Just the physical size of the territory covered by this very small group of peer and family support coordinators is amazing when you recognize that there are currently only five OSI clinics from Veterans Affairs in place and a number of OTSSCs from DND. Especially for reservists who may live far from a major base, getting to where we have a peer support coordinator can be a real challenge.

Growing the volunteer network that I referred to is another challenge that our PSCs face each day—and I might add that it is their responsibility, in part. Once the investment has been made to find and train these folks, retaining them becomes another challenge. The peer support groups that are such an important part of this program also take a lot of effort and significant resources because many peers are reluctant to meet at on-base facilities. As I indicated earlier, even finding a place to meet can be a problem. That's why I indicated that sometimes they meet at McDonald's or Tim Hortons.

I'll just back up to that point because there are a lot of soldiers who will not admit they have a problem. They do not want to be seen going into a “mental health facility” or some facility like that on the base. They'll be identified, and in their mind, that's not good or it's not macho—if you want to use that term—since they have to stand up and brush it off. So there are avenues for them to approach.

The last challenge on the list is certainly not the least. Let there be no doubt that the culture of the Canadian Forces, in dealing with mental health issues, has changed significantly in the last six years or so. However, there's still a long haul ahead, and to my mind it will never completely go away. We have to continually fight the fact that there shouldn't be a stigma associated with an operational stress injury, including PTSD and the other subtitles.

Education and training are the key to cultural change, and as is often the case, the long-term investments are frequently overtaken by the shorter-term demands. To even sustain the gains made in the last few years, great effort is required, and this is, and will remain, a constant challenge.

Ladies and gentlemen, just before I finish, this very successful program is funded by both departments, of course, and 75% of those who are serviced are in fact veterans, and 25% are serving members, plus or minus a few percentage points, and I'll be corrected by these officers if I'm wrong on those figures. But it doesn't make much difference, because, Mr. Chairman, it's understandable that those percentages would be there because the uniqueness of this program is that a lot of the veterans, be they Korean War vets, be they Beirut war vets, be they vets of Yugoslavia or the former Yugoslavia and so forth, are coming forward: “I've got a problem”; “I was bombing out of Aviona and I've got a problem”; “I was part of the Swiss Air cleanup and I've got a problem”; “I was on that aircraft that crashed short of Alert and I've got a problem”; “I'm a SAR tech and I've got a problem”. These people are coming out of the woodwork, and they may be retired. So this program, in my mind, is literally an outstanding success.

Thank you for your attention. With that, I'd like to invite your questions. If you would address to them to myself, as required, I'll direct them to the appropriate officers, sir.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Thank you very much, Colonel Ethell.

I take it you're the prime presenter and the other people will not be adding anything at this particular moment but will come later as questions arise?

9:25 a.m.

Col Donald S. Ethell

Yes, sir.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Okay. Thank you very much, Colonel.

All right. Well, over to our Liberal friends.

Mr. Valley, for seven minutes, to begin.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

Thank you very much. It was a very precise presentation.

I have quite a few questions; I'm sure the chairman will cut me off. But just quickly, on your map of the family support network, southern Manitoba, Shilo, is that the base?

9:25 a.m.

Major Mariane Le Beau Project Manager, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Department of National Defence

It's in Winnipeg.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

My daughter is at the university in Brandon, and she was part of the volunteer family support that dealt with some of the issues when we lost people out of the base. I hadn't connected that until I actually looked at the map and remembered some of the calls she made back home.

You mentioned the systemic gaps and shortcomings. Can you give us something quickly on what that would be and how we've addressed the systemic gap?

9:25 a.m.

Col Donald S. Ethell

I'll hand it over to the two co-managers, if you don't mind.

9:25 a.m.

Maj Mariane Le Beau

Yes, I'm sure each of us has something to say about that.

I guess for me, one of the most important systemic gaps is the culture issue, which has been identified as one of the very last items. On mental health issues in Canadian society at large, I don't think I need to explain to you here how much stigma is associated with those in our day-to-day world. You find yourself in a military environment, where it is compounded, where it is more complex, where the stigma is even stronger. So that's definitely one of the big challenges and systemic barriers we have to face. We're working really hard to deal with that.

One of the things we're working on is called the speakers bureau. This is specifically hiring volunteers, peers, who have suffered from an operational stress injury, who have recovered, who are screened and trained and are delivering operational stress injury briefings within the CF at leadership courses, at professional development courses, to help destigmatize and tackle the issue of the culture.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

That's just about education, about talking, about bringing it into the open, in plain language.

9:30 a.m.

Maj Mariane Le Beau

Indeed, sir.

Kathy.

9:30 a.m.

Kathy Darte Program Co-Manager, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Veterans Affairs Canada

I would add to that and just stress that we continuously, through this program, are heightening the awareness and educating people on what it's like to live with an operational stress injury, what it's like to the individuals themselves, and also the impact it has on their families.

We're not struggling with it. Being with the program from the very beginning, I have seen these gaps narrow considerably. There were many gaps when Lieutenant-Colonel Grenier and I started in 2001-02, but there have been significant changes for the better.

All of the workers in this program who provide the support have an injury themselves, all of the peer support workers; we call them coordinators. All have a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety disorder, or depression. They've all been through treatment. They've all recovered to the point where they can continue to work on a daily basis. That's a very challenging thing to do, to work with others who you see in the same place that you were in many years ago. What they do is act as beacons of hope, because they become a prime example of early intervention, getting into treatment, sticking with treatment, that you can recover and get back to where you were prior to receiving your injury.

So we are very cognizant of that, and we work very hard to ensure the health and well-being of the folks who work in this program, that they remain healthy to do the work, because it's very, very challenging.

9:30 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

Thank you.

Colonel, you mentioned the emphasis on family, the social support for families, which we've talked about a lot here. You're very clear on your passion for the families. Can you tell us, when did it start? You gave us quite a history. When did we realize that families were the biggest part of the support network that needs to be there for this stress? Has it always been there? Was it there 30 or 40 years ago? Was it there 10 or 15 years ago?

9:30 a.m.

Col Donald S. Ethell

That's a good point. You can go back 40 years. I think back to when we were stationed in Germany—a young family—from 1960 to 1963 with a battalion. That was when the Berlin Wall was going up and the Cuban crisis was going on and so forth. When you were deployed, there was always a concern about what was going to happen to your family. Well, they had to find their way to the base and they would eventually get backloaded to Canada. That was the extent of the family support. Thank God for the regimental system, because it would kick in.

But since then, leaping ahead, as I keep bringing up, the Veterans Affairs and Canadian Forces advisory council was asked to come up with recommendations regarding a charter: either amend the old one or have a new one. During those deliberations, Mr. Pierre Allard, who is here today, from the Royal Canadian Legion, was a member of that council, as I was, and a number of us were tasked to go to various bases to talk to the troops informally, 30 to 40 people, privates to captains, a couple of ex-warrant officers, without any names taken, to have a round table discussion, with the consent of the base commander, with the consent of NDHQ, and so forth. We were supposed to do three—the army, navy, and air force—and we ended up doing eighteen of those.

Concurrent with our movements were two female members of our council who were there to talk to the families, sometimes at the military family resource centre, and sometimes they didn't want to meet there and would meet someplace else, at reduced numbers. It came out loud and clear, not only from the troops we talked to, that first of all they were grossly overtasked and stressed right out. They were stressed out, and the people who were left back were stressed out. When you have a section of four and three of them are gone, and one person has to do everything, what effect did that have on the family? Our family team brought it out loud and clear when we made the presentation to the deputy minister and others, and eventually to the minister, and it was accepted, that of all the things we were considering at that time, family would be at the top of the list. Believe it or not, ahead of the veteran, family would be first.

That report was passed and accepted by the minister and his department with the drafting of the new veterans charter, and so forth. So that's where it started. Since then, of course, as you've heard, this program has evolved in the last five years. It was written initially by Stéphane Grenier at his kitchen table: How am I going to influence the system to help my peers? And by the way, my wife has a problem too, because I have become a recluse. I've become a recluse, she's become a recluse, and there's an effect on the family.

That's not just unique to Grenier; it's unique to a number of us who have gone through that process: Where can we get some help? So the family has to come into it, but you have to walk before you run. The idea was, with the two champions of the OSISS program at the time, General Couture and ADM Brian Ferguson from the Department of Veterans Affairs, let's move forward, get the peers running, and we will address the family.

It may sound like, well, okay, bring the family along. They were brought along, and they're both together now and they're both being addressed. I'm getting into the business of the two co-managers here, but from my understanding, they're both being addressed. Sure, there's lots of work to be done.

Kathy or Mariane, do you want to add to that?

9:35 a.m.

Program Co-Manager, Operational Stress Injury Social Support Advisory Committee, Veterans Affairs Canada

Kathy Darte

Colonel Ethell is correct, yes, families have always been part of the OSISS program. Our mission statement says it's for CF members, veterans, and their families. They've never been excluded from our program. They've been there from the very beginning in terms of design.

This program started off as a project. In the pilot phase we started with only four people, who happened to be veterans themselves. Then we implemented the family part. The family component of the program was fully implemented in 2005.

So yes, families are very much part of the OSISS program.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

Thank you.

9:35 a.m.

Maj Mariane Le Beau

I would like to add something here.

Considering that I joined the program just last summer, I feel I have a wonderfully objective view of it, and I really want to make it clear that there was no blueprint. The OSISS program is a unique program. It does not exist anywhere else. The training and the way it functions is unique. It started slowly, with four peer support coordinators, and soon we'll be at thirty.

That's all I wanted to add.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

Roger Valley Liberal Kenora, ON

Thank you. Your passion for it is obvious.