Veterans Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2007

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much.

This has been a great presentation.

I assure you that Mrs. Hinton asks that same question to each witness, and I did enjoy the reply from the witnesses today.

We've established that one of the challenges we face is that the individual has to recognize he has a problem. I certainly agree with that. The people around him have to be able to recognize there's a problem as well and to know there are programs that he or she can access. Then, third, is actually accessing those programs.

I represent a rural community outside of the Halifax area. Sometimes, actually knowing those programs exist in the regions becomes a challenge. And then there is accessing them.

I want to coattail on a question posed by Mr. Stoffer. This is a real situation. We had a great tragedy in Nova Scotia two weeks ago when we lost a young soldier, Corporal Kevin Megeney. But there's a dual tragedy. There's somebody on the other end of that tragedy, and that's the young fellow who was involved. It was an accidental shooting. There's another life in jeopardy here, and if the supports aren't there for that young soldier, I think he's at risk.

Could you walk me through the protocol? He's a reservist. What will take place now? How will he and his family garner the support to face what's ahead of them? There will be an inquiry and what have you, but I think there's some fear on the parts of some that....

Everybody around this table has probably had a life experience where they had a friend or acquaintance and maybe there was a tragic ending. When somebody takes his own life, everybody around says, “You know, we should have picked up on that. All the indicators were there, but we missed them.”

Could you walk me through how we can make sure this young soldier gets the support he needs?

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

I'll let the professionals answer, but I would like to add a comment, as I usually do.

I have been a soldier for many years, and this is not a unique situation, where a soldier gets killed as a result of an action of another soldier.

The shooter in this case has a.... Let's back up a bit. The family of the dead soldier will hopefully be involved in a bereavement program, or some of the people from the OSISS will be talking with them. That's their call; it can't be imposed on them. It comes through the assisting officer and so forth. So that is available from the OSISS program.

The shooter has a couple of problems. You may recall the incident a year or two ago where the shooter has now been charged. You can imagine that young soldier—and I don't know the circumstances of the event—has in the back of his mind, “This was an accident, but am I going to be charged because the other chap was charged?” He has to face that. I'll let the professionals talk about it, but I'm talking about it from the soldier's point of view.

I am sure the soldiers would close ranks, remembering that most of the units, subunits, and so forth have been involved with peer support training. And that's formal and informal. It goes back to the three and a half hours of training at a recruit school. That's the formal. There's informal, when you're having a coffee break: “How am I going to overcome this problem? Have I got a problem? Who do I talk to?” In other words, your bed mate, your tent mate, is going to be there. I would like to think that this is where it starts. I know there are mechanisms where, if necessary, the command can direct the individuals to seek help.

I'm way out of my depth here, so I'll hand it over to Major Le Beau.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I guess in a way I cannot really comment on that particular case per se because I am not involved as the OSISS program manager. OSISS is not directly involved in that one, except for the bereavement part. We have not discussed bereavement yet, although it is in the presentation. It is for widows and parents who lose someone in operations. There's a direct, proactive referral through the military assisting officer who contacts the family. We have volunteers who have gone through a similar experience to provide peer support to the spouse, the widow, or the family members.

As for the individual, Jim, I believe you know the process.

[LCol Jim Jamieson]

Certainly this person will receive active outreach assistance with respect to mental health issues from the mental health team. I'd also like to suggest, though, sir, that OSISS does not go out, but we will talk to and treat anyone who comes to us. For many of our peers, that is their central problem. They have actually killed someone, whether it be an enemy or in this case, accidentally, a friend. The problem of living with that is very common, and if this soldier from your office wants help from us, we have an excellent person in Halifax, a retired chief warrant officer, infantry, who is tough as nails but a big teddy bear. We will be happy to support this person, but through OSISS he has to come to us.

Perhaps your office could even be instrumental in making sure he knows about us.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I appreciate that.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

Does that answer your question, sir?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

Now we'll move on to Monsieur Roy for five minutes, please.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, I'd like to speak to Ms. Darte.

Earlier you said that people calling on your services were entitled to eight counselling sessions. Did I understand you correctly? Why eight sessions? Who determined that? We're talking about post-traumatic stress here, and it seems to me that problem lasts years. So why are there only eight counselling sessions? Is it because you don't have the resources to offer more? There must be a theory behind that.

[Kathy Darte]

It's up to eight sessions. Maybe it's a stop-gap kind of program. It started off as being a crisis line service for individuals who are just at a loss, who don't know what to do. There's a 1-800 number they can call. They go into a main centre. The issue they're calling about is discussed. Then they connect them up with resources in the community for up to eight sessions, but within that timeframe of eight sessions they should be getting connected with DND or getting connected with Veterans Affairs. This is just sort of something we can do right away, and then we get you into the other systems that are out there to support you.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I find it hard to understand how you provide support to operational stress victims. I've heard a lot of theories, and I've heard about some very practical things. I haven't read all the documents, but I viewed the matter more as a sponsorship program involving one or two members of the Canadian Forces or former members.

A sponsorship program isn't usually established for the short term, but rather the long term. If you offer someone a sponsor, but take the sponsor away after eight sessions, that person will drop out. You're pushing that person into the arms of someone else and you're asking them to start telling their story all over again. So everything has to be started over from scratch. I have reservations about this way of operating.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

I will ask Major Le Beau to comment on that, and then I have a couple of comments.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

If the matter is perceived that way, I'm very pleased that you've asked the question. I don't think the distinction has been clearly drawn between the services provided by Operational Stress Injury Social Support and those offered by the program Ms. Darte referred to, a very specific short-term emergency assistance program. That program is under the authority of the Department of Veterans Affairs, but the Department of National Defence shares costs with it. It is nevertheless not our program.

You're right in saying that sponsoring can be a very long-term proposition. We can't determine the required number of sessions in advance. I like the image that you used. We talk more about peer support than sponsors. Some take part in the group and continue with individual interviews over the years. We hope they will eventually be able to become volunteers with us to help other people. That's how things are developing.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Another matter that concerns me is the way you reach people. You talked a lot about it. In the figures you provided us, it's stated that approximately 2.8% of regular forces members and 1.2% of reservists have reported corresponding symptoms.

Of all the people affected by post-traumatic stress and identified as such by the Canadian Forces, how many do you reach? Even if their problem is identified by a Canadian Forces psychologist or psychiatrist, those people won't necessarily see you, will they?

[Maj Mariane LeBeau]

No, it's done on a voluntary basis.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Among other things, you talked about a telephone system, but how do you manage to find sponsors in the remote regions?

I have a very specific example back home of a man who regularly comes to see me. He's currently in the public service, but let me tell you he's not easy to deal with. He doesn't have a sponsor for the moment, and I don't think he's calling on you. I'm not sure he's aware of the problems he causes around him. It's not always easy when he comes to see me.

[Maj Mariane LeBeau]

As Mr. Jamieson said, these are people who—

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

It also causes him physical problems; you have to understand that.

How do you go about finding sponsors for people who live in regions like mine? It's not easy.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

I should probably point out first that we don't find sponsors for people in the regions: we hire coordinators who cover given regions. In the case of Matane, the nearest coordinator would be in Valcartier or Quebec City.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That's about 400 kilometers away.

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

That's correct. You're entirely right. That's a considerable distance.

There are currently 17 coordinators in Canada. There will soon be 19 for military personnel and veterans. There are six for families, but that figure will soon be increased to 12. So we're going to double the number of our coordinators for families in Canada.

Then there's the matter of volunteers. We're all entirely aware that it is impossible for us to have employees who cover all regular and reserve units across Canada on a full-time basis. By relying on volunteers, we want to extend the tentacles and provide support at various locations. Of course, it's easier when populations are concentrated.

Whatever the case may be, I'd like you to give us that individual's contact information.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I asked the question, but I didn't get an answer.

How many people are you ultimately reaching?

[Maj Mariane Le Beau]

We currently reach about 2,400.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Jamieson.

[LCol Jim Jamieson]

May I add something?

I suppose you know that the situation

that Kathy Darte talked about

only concerns people who don't want to go to the OSISS clinic. All Canadian Forces members and all veterans, as well as the spouses of members of those two groups, are entitled to use OSISS services.

But some people don't want to go there. They want to keep it private. That's just a gateway to help them get into services.

As Major Le Beau said, we do everything we can to find a trained volunteer in the community who will provide one-on-one support to the individual who's in a relatively isolated place. This has been difficult, but we have dozens of trained volunteers, many of whom are in relatively remote communities, who can be of service to people.

I hope that at least partly answers the question.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I'm infringing on your time, sir, but—