Veterans Affairs Committee on May 1st, 2007

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

If I may, you make a very valid point, sir. On the Battle of the Atlantic Sunday, does the flag come down? On other days that are recognized in battles, the cessation of operations in Korea in June 1953, and so forth, does the flag come down? I doubt it, but I don't know for sure.

Personally, I don't think there's a problem in regard to the flag not coming down for peacekeepers' day, because we know full well that at the various walls, parks, and so forth, the groups are going to have their day, be it in a branch in the legion, the units, and so forth. We're all legionnaires, and we're all members of the ANAVETS too. Those flags are probably going to come down, but it's a local decision to be made.

Some of the provinces bring their flags down, including Alberta. They didn't have any choice. It's important to them.

I'm suggesting to you that, as Jack puts it, I wouldn't get wrapped up in semantics and so forth in this case. It's important, and it's nice to have, but it doesn't come down when people are killed in Afghanistan anymore. It doesn't come down on DND buildings when people are killed in Afghanistan, except on the day of the funeral. There is some flexibility, in other words, delegated to the local level.

I don't know. What do you think?

[Ron Griffis]

Don is absolutely correct. We're flexible to that extent. We're flexible with respect to “peacekeeper” as opposed to “peacekeeping”, although we have a preference.

On the flag issue, we know the flap that was created with respect to the casualties coming home from Afghanistan, with respect to the press and the press not being there, and with respect to the families and their preferences as to what was going to take place. The same thing happened with respect to the flag on the Peace Tower.

We're flexible in that nature. We would hate to see the act not be passed because of the inflexibility with respect to that.

[Gerry Wharton]

You may have seen me smiling. The reason I was smiling was that for 18 years I was manager of ceremonial and protocol services for Public Works. It was my job to order all these flags down, so I went through the whole “haroosh” on Princess Diana, etc.

I have similar feelings to you. I feel very strongly about traditions. We've established the tradition, and it has come up recently with the discussion over Afghanistan casualties. I personally believe--and I hope I'm speaking for other vets when I say this--that by half-masting the flag on November 11, we are honouring all our war dead, including our peacekeepers who died for our country's cause.

I don't think it's necessary to half-mast the flag for that. We are honouring peacekeepers; we're not necessarily honouring dead peacekeepers. I think if we overly focus on those who have given their lives, then we may detract somewhat from the honour to those who still live. I would say that it is not a requirement.

[Ray Kokkonen]

Being fourth in line relegates you to a position where you're either going to think of something very clever or you're going to repeat what other people have said.

I think it was mentioned here earlier that it is a day to recognize peacekeepers, not necessarily a memorial day for the fallen. I think that is the main intent of the bill. I agree with you. We do have November 11, which recognizes all of our fallen.

[Jack Frost]

I can only add to what Gerry has said. Certainly the Legion's preference would be to not lower the flag. We feel that November 11 is the one and only day that should recognize all Canadian Forces veterans throughout time, be it in war or in peacekeeping duties. Our preference would be not to lower the flag.

Regarding the act itself, our interpretation was that it was to honour the living. Life is for the living. We have the men and women with us on that special day. We feel they should be honoured, as well as those who have laid down their lives.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chair, after the comments, I would like to say that it is something I'm very passionate about and feel very strongly about. At 11 o'clock every day there's a special guard who turns the pages. That chamber is something that's very hallowed.

I want to say that this is a grave concern to me, and I want to communicate that, through you, to Mr. St. Denis.

Again, though, thank you for the bill and the principle of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I understand. I think everything was said eloquently.

Now, we have a spot for another Conservative, but we will move to Mr. Stoffer, since he's the next one recognized.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much.

I thank Mr. Sweet for bringing up what could be considered a fairly sensitive issue, but the vast majority of people in my riding of Shearwater would like to see the flag down, especially when those six people were killed in Afghanistan recently. You could be bringing it down just about every day, and then what meaning would it have? It's a good discussion to have, especially with those who have served and those family members who are left behind when their loved ones have made the ultimate sacrifice.

One of the concerns I've always raised is that the flag comes down for a member of Parliament when he or she passes on. I certainly wouldn't want the flag down if I passed away. Put it down for people who served the country in a more noble concern than I have.

The discussion will be ongoing, but I think Mr. Sweet's comments are fairly valid in that regard.

I want to thank you for bringing up the Battle of the Atlantic. This Sunday is the big day. I want to bring up the issue of the merchant mariners, as many of them will be there, and how they were forgotten for an awfully long time. But to leave the port of Halifax and a couple of hours later, boom, down you go.... They served just as much as anybody in the regular naval force. It does take a while sometimes to move something forward and to remember the cause, but I'm glad that error has been corrected. I hope this particular bill on this day of August 9 will reignite the passions of Canadians and they'll understand what happened.

It's not just in Afghanistan. We have people around the world right now serving in all kinds of countries, but we don't hear about it much. We had a fellow who was killed falling from a tower the other day. We didn't hear much about him, but he was the ninth person killed, fairly quickly after the other eight, and yet we didn't hear much about him. Anybody who serves I think should be remembered to the best of our ability. DVA's job is not only to be concerned with the health and welfare of those who are left behind, but also with the act of remembrance.

That's why I want to thank Madam Guarnieri very much for the previous government's efforts on the Book of Remembrance, the seventh book that's up in that room. Unfortunately, that's a book that will never close. It's not in alphabetical order, but every time a new name is added, it means one more great sacrifice by those who have paid the ultimate price.

Again, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Over to Mr. St. Denis. I didn't see your name, but now it's there.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

It's not a problem, Mr. Chair.

If I could sum up, I really appreciate the intervention of my colleague, David Sweet, and the responses our witnesses gave. I can assure you, on behalf of all members here, we do get along very well in spite of the need at times to be partisan. This committee has a great history of working together.

I certainly will not resist, in fact, I will support, removing that element of the bill with respect to the half-masting. I am convinced by what I've heard today, and if nothing else, this demonstrates how democracy can work.

On other points we listen carefully. It's my personal preference to keep the word “peacekeeper” as opposed to “peacekeeping”, as it recognizes the people versus the operation or mission, as Mr. Wharton has said. I don't think there's any element of this that's going to prevent us from moving forward. That's the assurance I want to give you.

My colleague, Mr. Perron, said as much. He's made his point, as has Roger. We will sort this out and move forward. It will be amended to the extent that we can to reflect the excellent suggestions we heard today. I want to thank you very much for helping us significantly today.

I am the messenger and the sponsor. All of us and all of you really must work together to keep remembrance alive. If this adds a little piece to that mosaic of remembrance, that'll make me happy. Less important is what its final form will be.

I'll conclude with that. Unless there are any comments from the witnesses, or if my colleague Roger wants to jump in, I'm finished.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Why don't we let the witnesses respond first, if they want to.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I just want to clarify something for them, though. You're going to hear that there's a vote on this tomorrow night in the House of Commons. It's merely an extension, right?

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Yes.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

So don't be confused by that. It's just an extension tomorrow night, so that we have time to deal with this issue.

I didn't want them to read in the paper that we had done something.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

After the extension, when would it be voted on?

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

We're hoping Thursday. We can deal with it at this meeting.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

As soon as possible, hopefully. But if the extension doesn't occur, it ties the hands of the committee, so we wanted to make certain there was an extension motion put in place, which will be voted on. Then we hope to have a conclusion very quickly. I think if you have listened to what's going on around the table, although there has been input and maybe some differences of opinion on some wording, overall everyone seems to be completely on side with this. I don't anticipate it taking a long time at all.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

Thank you, Madam.

Having appeared before this committee a number of times, it's great for an outsider, a non-political animal, to listen to the various political parties. When it comes to veterans, you're all playing from the same sheet of music.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Yes, once in a while we get it right.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

Thank you.

[A voice]

If we give them enough time.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You should try Public Accounts.

Now, the only person I have yet left to recognize is Monsieur Perron. Five minutes, if you wish.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I will be brief. I would like to comment on what you said, Jack. You said that, on November 11, the flag is put at half-mast in memory of all the members of the armed forces who died in action.

In light of the new style of war we are witnessing today, do we consider the RCMP officers, the diplomats, and the civilian non-governmental organization workers who die in Afghanistan or on other missions as veterans?

I am not looking for an official response. I know it has nothing to do with today's discussion. I was just wondering.

[Jack Frost]

How about I send you a letter?