Veterans Affairs Committee on June 5th, 2007

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It makes perfectly good sense to me. That's something I would not have trouble supporting.

On a further note, you're talking about the lack of mental health personnel. That's not just a problem for veterans and serving members; that's a national problem that we face as a nation. The stress of everyday life for Canadians who aren't serving has become very difficult for a lot of people, and we're finding more and more breakdowns among the general population--so yes, mental health is serious.

[Pierre Allard]

That's why we have to open up the clinics to where the clients are.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I agree that we have to do that. At this time of year, when so many young people are graduating from high school and trying to decide what they want to do with their futures, my recommendation would be that they look seriously at mental health as a vocation, and that they start looking at geriatrics as well, because we are an aging population and we are certainly under enough stress that there will never be a lack of work for mental health workers in this country or in this world.

Thanks again for your comment. I appreciate it.

[Pierre Allard]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mrs. Hinton.

We will go to Mr. St. Denis for five minutes.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you. I'll ask just a short question, Mr. Chair, and I'm sorry if you mentioned this while I had to step out for a few minutes.

When a member of the military is about to leave, for whatever reason--by choice, by medical discharge, what have you--in all circumstances, regardless of the nature of the leave-taking, is there a full medical assessment? You mentioned earlier, for example, that if somebody who was in Korea or World War II didn't have the audiogram, the hearing test, when they left, it was more difficult later on.

Does DND establish benchmarks for each retiring person when it comes to their hearing or their eyesight--just the various measures--so that there's a snapshot of what their physical situation was on that date, so that years later, when something comes up, there is an automatic inventory of that information available for comparison, or is it just left to the retiring person to ask for a medical?

[Pierre Allard]

Well, what I said is that for World War II veterans and Korean veterans, it is actually simpler because there were no such tests, generally speaking. Maybe once in a while, depending on what classification...for example, if you were a pilot, you may have had an audiogram on release if you were serving in World War II or Korea. But generally speaking, there was no audiogram on release. There was a medical test, if you want, but it was not as intensive as it is today.

The problem is if that person, after serving in World War II, then joined the Canadian Forces and served in the Canadian Forces, because starting at around 1960-ish it became the rule to give audiograms on release. So if there is an audiogram on release, that is the challenge: to prove a disability if it doesn't meet the basic criteria.

Currently, there are a number of processes that releasing military personnel must go through. They have to go through a transition interview, first of all with the Canadian Forces manager and then with a Veterans Affairs Canada transition manager, where they get fully briefed on all their benefits, everything that pertains to their release, whether it be from a disability perspective or from the superannuation perspective, basically their pension, pension rights, insurance rights, provision of health care, etc.

So that transition interview is mandatory. For example, going to see the Veterans Affairs Canada official is a mandatory step in the release process. There has to be a release medical. The release medical does include an audiogram. And there are other briefings that happen throughout the career, throughout the life, of an individual. The challenge is when somebody asks for a quick release. In other words, you can get a 30-day release by giving one day's notice that you're going to be released in 30 days, and things might get compressed in those times. Somebody who might actually be ready to release on a medical release but doesn't want to take the time to go through the full process and he's pushing out the door as fast as he can, that's a little bit more challenging.

But even that individual can come back in and say, “I released under voluntary release, but I subsequently identified that I had medical problems. Can you change my release category?” And the Canadian Forces will do that. There are return-to-work programs, there's job training, etc., that can take place six months before the release is initiated. So I would say that the Canadian Forces have things in hand, and so has Veterans Affairs, for the modern-day veteran's transition to civilian life.

It doesn't mean that there are not any challenges: for example, medical care. Obviously, if you've been receiving the care of a medical doctor in the Canadian Forces, finding a general practitioner when you retire is a challenge. I have gone through two GPs since I retired, and the last one, I just found out, has left, so I don't have a GP. I'm 61 years old and I have to go and find one. So this is a challenge.

It's the same thing for the families, because the families are constantly moving across the country. They may establish that they have a doctor, but they say, “This is my doctor for four years until I move here, and by the way, when I'm released, I don't have a doctor.” So there are some challenges there.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

It seems, unless there's anybody else who wishes to chip in at this stage, that we have run out of questions. Is that fair? Okay.

I'd like to thank you, Mr. Allard, for your presentation today.

We have about a half-hour left. Committee members, I understand we do not have a quorum with regard to business; however, I wanted to raise some things.

Next meeting—and we previously agreed to this, so we don't need to formally accept this or adopt this because we've done it at a previous meeting.

Monsieur Gaudet, is this pertinent?

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I want to discuss the next meeting of the committee. Are we leaving here by bus? Where is 285 Coventry Rd. located, the conference room?

I see that you are coming to that, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Monsieur Gaudet, thank you.

This is exactly where I was leading. You're telepathic. Where I was going with this was, yes, during the next meeting on Thursday we will be having a tour instead, a briefing by the DND VAC centre, and it's at 285 Coventry Road, main floor boardroom. We will be meeting at 8:45 a.m., so 15 minutes earlier than normal, in front of the Confederation building. It's the easiest place for taxis to gather, and then using taxi chits, or whatever the situation is here, we'll use those to transport ourselves. Luckily, I have a vehicle, so I will be driving.

The clerk says he will send this around by e-mail.

I know Mr. Stoffer has now vacated, but he did raise the idea of a trip to Dominion Command for the Royal Canadian Legion, and Mr. Allard probably should be hearing about this as well. Anyhow, it's a possibility.

There's another very serious thing that I want to make sure we get done--I don't know when the House will recess, but....

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Friday, I hope.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

This Friday? Sir, I hope you're right.

I suspect, based on the fact that Mr. Milliken, the Speaker, has a gathering at his place, a garden party on the 12th, and there is a caucus meeting for most parties on the 13th, if that were to follow...I don't know, but we'll see what happens. Anyhow, it's all up to negotiations between House leaders, and I don't know any more than any of you do.

I would like to try to get through the recommendations with regard to Michel's report on post-traumatic stress disorder, and we probably need to take into account some of the testimony we've had from our PTSD sufferers. Anyhow, we'll do the field trip of sorts on Thursday, and hopefully we'll have a chance to come back on Tuesday and deal with the recommendations...do we have witnesses for Tuesday?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Roger]

Either or....

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I suggest we work on the recommendations for PTSD simply to make sure we get those dealt with.

Yes?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Chairman, based on some of the evidence that we had during that meeting, although this is important and we're getting into the summer, I feel there may have been another two sets of witnesses that we might want to call. Obviously, the will of the committee will rule, and maybe we want to do a supplementary report, but some of the things that were raised that evening were so germane to the actual investigation we're doing on PTSD that.... As I mentioned in my last intervention, I think it wouldn't be good due process for us to leave it out.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'm certainly open to the idea of taking other witnesses, if you will. However, because we will be going for the summer recess and it's going to be so long—months away—I would suggest that we take at least what we have and do the best we can with the recommendations as they stand, and then revisit that issue in the fall, if we'd like, and bring in more witnesses. I'm certainly not opposed to that, but we spent some time, and our memories are probably better to harness the full capacity now, with regard to the recommendations, than to wait over the entire summer before we address the issue.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, that's what I said. I don't mind a part two, or a revised report, whatever is within parliamentary tradition, of course, but the concerns that were mentioned were at such a significant level that I think we need to do a little bit more investigation there, particularly because in almost every meeting we saw the recurrence of concerns about capacity. With the doctor's testimony and the fact that there is a chance that there's some of the work the department is doing to actually debilitate capacity, we need to investigate to make sure that's not the case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Understood.

Mr. St. Denis.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I hear you, Mr. Chair and David. I think it's important, and I agree with you that while things are fresh, let's have another good kick at the can on the PTSD piece. But if there were a way to characterize whatever we call this-- interim, draft interim, or chapter one, however we should characterize it--on David's point, should another couple of points come up.... In other words, it's a living document; it's not crystallized in stone. If in the fall.... You know, we really need to mention this on PTSD, that it somehow be a draft interim report, or a report that we can publish. Do committees issue or publish draft interim reports? Can we legally do that, so we have it written down, but it's a living document and it still could be revised?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

From what I understand from the clerk, we can certainly submit a report, and there's nothing that precludes us from embellishing on, republishing, or repackaging a report subsequently.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Then that's the answer. Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Can we table a report with a note saying that appendices may be tabled later or something like that? They might be short reports relating to the main report that we are going to table as soon as possible, I hope.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

The clerk says that really in many respects we can do as we like, but each report is an independent report. Maybe to skin the cat, if you will, the way to address it is, and this is just off the top of my head, to say in this report that these issues will be studied and ongoing and there will be subsequent reports coming out with regard to these issues.