Veterans Affairs Committee on June 14th, 2007

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I was there around Christmastime, actually, and I went to the base. They had a midnight...I wouldn't call it a mass; I think it was interdenominational, but it was like a midnight mass in a big Quonset hut. I got chatting with some of the military people--that was in my previous life--and they all seemed to enjoy the experience. That was the time of the UN convoys through the Turkish area, which we did.

There's been a lot of discussion lately about peacekeeping, peacemaking, combat role for the military.

Is there another association called Canadian peacemakers? How does that work?

[Ray Kokkonen]

There are basically the two organizations that are specifically intended for peacekeepers but not limited to that. That's ourselves, the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association--as I've already said, our membership definition includes anybody who is under the government definition of veteran--and then there is the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping. Don Ethell was the leader of that organization for some time. They do define their membership to those people who were involved in peacekeeping, whether it was operations...but they also list in their documents that it includes peacekeeping, peacemaking, and peace support. And peace support is the big term now, as far as I know.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Okay. Your organization doesn't make a big distinction between peacekeeping and peacemaking. I'm wondering if you have read Senator Roméo Dallaire's book, Shake Hands with the Devil, about the situation in Rwanda some years ago.

[Ray Kokkonen]

I have a signed copy of it on my coffee table, but I have not finished it. I've known General Dallaire, as I mentioned earlier on here.... We were captains together, and he did end up being much more successful in his career than I did. Sorry about that.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm not so sure about that. Anyway, I'm sure you've served with pride and distinction yourself.

I'd recommend you finish reading it. It's quite a story. It's a sad commentary on the inertia or the lack of action or the politics within the United Nations that caused so many people to lose their lives unnecessarily.

Within your organization, when you're sitting there—I can't imagine you'd ever sit down in the Legion and sip the beer—but on those rare occasions, or within your own association, do you discuss the difference between peacemaking or peacekeeping? Do you have any views on that or do you just stay away from that topic.

[Ray Kokkonen]

It is the subject of casual conversation at times but nothing intensive that leads to anything.

I don't understand exactly where you're going with this line of questioning. I think everybody recognizes there are different kinds of operations, depending on the situation and what the troops there do. However, I'm not sure whether that distinction matters to the veterans themselves. It may matter as far as pensions and eligibility for services, depending on what has happened in that particular operation.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm not a permanent member of the committee. I'm substituting for someone, so my knowledge of the topic is quite limited. I was sort of winging it, in a sense, more out of curiosity than anything else.

Given that, I'll pass to other, more learned colleagues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Your timing is impeccable, Mr. Cullen. I wish all committee members came in on time as well as you do.

Mr. Gaudet of the Bloc is next for five minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Kokkonen.

I apologize for being late. I was not here for your presentation.

I would like to know whether you have the same benefits as the Peacekeepers, police officers and civilians, and the same health care services as veterans.

[Ray Kokkonen]

I think war services has different legislation completely from the peace force. I am not sure exactly what the differences are. I know the peacekeeping veterans have access to various services, depending on the circumstances of their injuries and what they relate to. But I don't know the details.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

The Veterans Independence Program and the health care review are on today's agenda. That's why I'd like to know whether there are any health care services that you are lacking.

[Ray Kokkonen]

I'm not aware of any lack of health care services. I assume you mean for the peacekeeping veterans as opposed to the whole community.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I did, yes.

[Ray Kokkonen]

I am not aware of any sort of missing components, but that's another question I am not qualified to answer.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you very much.

Do you have a hall where everyone who has taken part in a peacekeeping mission—peacekeepers and others—can meet?

[Ray Kokkonen]

It's rather interesting that our meeting place is the Royal Canadian Legion building in Miramichi. The Legion allows us to meet there. We have a general meeting every two months and an executive meeting preceding that. We also hold social functions in the Legion building, and we have an extremely good relationship with the Legion overall.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Listening to you talk earlier, I had an idea. It might be trivial, but I'm going to share it with you anyway. You talked about the Canadian Legion and the fact that, in many places, legions are closing their doors. Why not rename the legion with "Canadian veterans"? This would apply to soldiers, men and women, of the air force and land force as well as the navy who have taken part in peacekeeping missions. What do you think?

I think that there is a date set for your meeting and discussion.

[Ray Kokkonen]

I think, of course, that this is returning to the notion of the umbrella organization. But there is a second theme to it, and that is that this would be, actually, the use of the infrastructure that's there. I certainly appreciate what the Legion is doing for us. But on the umbrella organization, I have to return to what I said earlier.

Again, there are different movements afoot now. For instance, we, as an organization--the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association--have applied for a name change to the Canadian Armed Forces Veterans Association, which would make us generic in nature. It would also even include, by clear definition, police officers who had served in that kind of thing.

Again, I think there are probably movements afoot by our other peacekeeping organization as well, although I have not heard about it. So there's the Legion and us. And I don't know whether the ANAVETS and the Gulf War Veterans Association are attempting anything of that nature.

Clearly, there's thinking and some form of action going on in that area and in that direction. I think all the veterans recognize the benefits of trying to create something like that.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Monsieur Gaudet.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Shipley, with the Conservatives, for five minutes.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Kokkonen, for coming out this morning. I agree with Mr. Sweet's comments to never underestimate your input to what we're doing. We are talking about a VIP program and the expansion of that, along with health care for our veterans. That obviously expands out to not just our veterans of all types, in all areas, but also to their families. And that's a significant change in what we're looking at.

What we want to do is try to be as expansive in this and get as much knowledge as we can. I think you've offered a lot in that.

What we've garnered and what we believe, in terms of health care--and we have spent a fair bit of time on post traumatic stress disorder--is that we need to actually start from the time an individual signs up to become a member of the Canadian Forces. We need to consider those things, through testing, right from the time they go through the Canadian Forces, which is under Defence, through their transition from Defence to being veterans, then as veterans through to the end of their lives. So we have this time when we're trying to bring them together rather than have separate silos of issues.

One of those things comes about in different organizations, and you've touched on that a little bit. I don't want to just focus on the Legion. There are a number of associations. I think bringing these together is really important.

I'm wondering if you have some comments about how we, as a committee, might make some recommendations as to who to have in this or on the process we might have to help.

When they become vets afterwards, those associations play an important role. You know, you talked about the legions being disconnected--that wasn't your word--but there are so many civilians in them. How do we link? Everybody has their own priorities of what they want to do that is significant. How do we bring that together? The veterans, when they get out, look for areas of help. Do you have any comments?

[Ray Kokkonen]

Are you asking what you, as a committee...?

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Well, what we're trying to do is bring witnesses in to help us help the veterans in terms of prevention and assistance throughout their careers and right through to their becoming veterans. How can we help them in the best way, and their families, quite obviously? I'm just focusing a little bit on the organizations, because there are so many of them. How do we bring them together, or do we?

[Ray Kokkonen]

I don't know. I think you are doing the best you can, as far as I can see, in having witnesses from the various organizations appear here to have a full, in-depth hearing. Look at me. The Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association is not a key player in this specific issue--and again, I go back to the war service veterans and the aging population and GAC and so on--yet you are giving me a full morning here to express my views and to answer questions and so on.

I cannot see how you could do much better. I know you afford that courtesy to all the other organizations. I know there are a number--I think somebody said there are 56 different organizations out there--but I think a large group of them are umbrellaed already.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

One of the things I found interesting—and I'm a new member on this committee—is that a week ago we went out to a place called the “centre”. It's a place for the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs. It's sort of a melting pot, for lack of a better word, where these two ministries and organizations work together as much as they can for that transition. They try to work with individuals who become part of the Canadian Forces, as they go through that, if they run into issues concerning health, and certainly any mental disorder that may come through post-traumatic stress.

Then how does that link in the transition with the veterans, if there are...? I don't know if you're familiar with that, but I'm wondering if you see those types of things as a big benefit. We're expanding those, opening up more centres across Canada.

Is communication important between National Defence and Veterans Affairs, in terms of health care for our vets?