Veterans Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2008

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

The problem is not in answering; it's after he gives his case. After that, it takes a long time to respond. He doesn't get a response, so he calls again, talks to somebody, yet--

[Darragh Mogan]

I understand that. He keeps calling and calling.

I'd have to see. I'm not saying it isn't happening; maybe it is. When you make a call, and when Madam Guarnieri makes a call, it's recorded on the client service delivery network system. That system is forwarded to the district office, so it's immediate--a call comes in. Most of the problems are solved on the phone. If it can't be solved on the phone, it's sent to the district office. If there's a delay in responding there....

I'm not aware of those kinds of delays. If there's a case where that delay has occurred, we'll look into it and make sure it doesn't happen a second time.

That is not a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Maybe in the future we can have members of the committee phone your 1-800 line, tape exactly what happens, time the responses, and then have you before the committee. That would be fun.

Now we're going to go over to Mr. Sweet with the Conservative Party for five minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

My first question is from your opening remarks. You mentioned this executive meeting. I don't recall if you said when that began. Could you tell me when it began, how many countries are involved, and how long it took before the political leaders engaged in it?

[Darragh Mogan]

There are five countries involved: Canada, the U.S., the U.K., New Zealand, and Australia. The first meeting occurred in Charlottetown in 2001. I believe there have been six meetings since, and those are with senior officials. The next meeting is in the U.K. in September. This one, the one in Washington, will be, I believe, the third ministerial forum--in other words, the political supervisors of the senior executives. They are meeting in Washington today. They've had two previous meetings. The last one was in Paris.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

And this was facilitated with a real synergy and oneness of mind, you'd say, between yourselves and...?

[Darragh Mogan]

It certainly has enabled a great deal of sharing of best practices. It's more than sharing of best practices. We can use an online system. There's no charge to the Canadian taxpayer for getting this. We get all the intellectual property rights from these countries for all the practices they engage in, and they get ours. It has really worked out very well.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Perron just alluded to it, but one of the most poignant moments that has happened since I have been on this committee was when we had a room full of people who were suffering from PTSD. We had a very competent captain here. I remember seeing her sitting there, a commissioned officer in intelligence, suffering from PTSD. She explained how trying to deal with the forms from Veterans Affairs actually just drove her more deeply into a funk.

I understand the complexity of accountability and everything, but my question is whether there is a way that, particularly for PTSD—you've alluded to the fact of the extreme increase—cases can be handled with more compassion, so that the person who is looking after the case can say, “Can I come over to your residence and help you fill out these forms?” Could there be some process by which someone from Veterans Affairs can walk a person through, if we can't make the forms simpler?

[Darragh Mogan]

Our counselling and case management staff can do that, and they do now, but from what you're hearing and from what I'm hearing in this committee, things are better but not good enough. So we'll have a look at that. We do have a group called the special needs advisory group. That's made up of the most severely disabled Canadian Forces veterans, and those people are both psychologically and physically impaired. They have a lot of points of view to share with us, one of which will be on the simplicity of dealing with our system.

So, yes, I'll make the undertaking that we'll take your advice and the guidance you have been giving here and continue to make improvements.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

There's help for burial costs. I have two quick questions. Is there a substantial amount of take-up on that program? That's in the remembrance program. Is that correct?

And is there any clawback? The federal government pays a death benefit from CPP, I believe. I'm not certain. Is there any clawback there, or was the program designed simply as an income-tested program, so in a situation of real dire need, people will get the help?

[Darragh Mogan]

There are two elements to that. The Last Post Fund administers that program. If the death of the individual is related to military service in any way—in other words, in effect, if the individual is pensioned at a degree of 48% or higher—the burial is covered automatically and there's no income test. For individuals who have a low income, other sources of funeral assistance, such as the Canada Pension Plan death benefit, would count against the ceiling, if the ceiling is higher than the Canada Pension Plan death benefit.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

My last question is on the veterans charter job placement program. It's available there, but are we getting a good take-up on it? Are a lot of people using it to get into the workforce?

[Ken Miller]

The take-up to this point in time has been relatively low, and we're presently putting some effort into trying to determine what some of the factors might be in that. Some of it may be a matter of timing, and we're trying to find ways to make it available and engage with folks earlier in the process, before they're released. That may be important.

Some of it may also relate to communication and the awareness that individuals may have of the program. Certainly from those who have taken part in the program, we're getting very positive feedback that it's very useful, and that's encouraging. So if we can make more people aware and make it available to more, I think it's a very beneficial program. But to answer your question directly, the uptake has been rather low to date.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Has the success rate for those who participate been quite high?

[Ken Miller]

I don't know the numbers, sir, but I understand it has been quite good, yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet.

Now back over to the Liberal Party of Canada and Mr. Russell for five minutes.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon to each of you. I certainly want to echo the sentiments of my colleague in thanking you for the work you do on behalf of veterans.

I just want to clarify. The department is undergoing a health care review. Is that right? It is conducting one?

[Darragh Mogan]

Yes.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Can you give us a sense of what the terms of reference for that review are?

[Darragh Mogan]

The specific terms of reference are written in sort of bureaucratic language. I'll tell you what the problem was that we were trying to address. I think that's where your question is pointed.

One is complex eligibility. If you look at our eligibility chart, there are 14 different groups and about 33 footnotes. So you have quite a number of variations there. You have to be sort of an astrophysicist to figure it out. The cost of figuring that out means resources not directed to solving problems. It can be quite frustrating for our field staff. It's understandable. It's a patchwork of eligibility based on changes that have had good political merit since 1946. The problem is that in 1946 the people were of the average age of 26, but now they're 86 and they have to go through that kind of complex system. That is one.

The other one is trying to get an integrated system of health care, whereby one person assists an individual all the way through the health care system, so it's more or less a case management model. That was certainly seen to be a problem.

And the other is to make sure that, where possible, we are promoting good health practices, especially when a person is older, because there are a lot of payoffs. That was one of the things noted that we don't have in our programs now. We should have an integrated health service program.

Those are the three areas we were asked to focus on in the health review. We based the review on the report completed by the Gerontological Advisory Council, which is a group of academics, practitioners, and veterans organizations that has been advising the Department of Veterans Affairs for more than 12 years. It produced a report called Keeping the Promise, in which these problems—the three I mentioned to you—were addressed.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I come from a remote riding as well, where there certainly is a semblance of the presence of Veterans Affairs. Certainly a lot of the people I represent are still striving to have the basics, such as a person, an office, or a bed for a veteran in some location, which in Labrador, for instance, could be hundreds of miles away. But at least it should be in some kind of a common environment, something they're familiar with in some kind of a culturally appropriate setting.

In terms of your health review itself, and understanding that it's a problem or a challenge, are you undertaking anything with a view to improving that for the veteran who lives in a remote area? You mentioned that you understand it and that you know it's a challenge. Is there anything your review is undertaking that would lead to recommendations to help or improve services in some way, shape, or form?

We can make the recommendation here. I think the suggestion made by my colleague, Roger Valley, is a very valid one.

[Darragh Mogan]

Yes, it is.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Is there something you're doing internally that would help us to help that veteran in a northern, remote, or rural area?

Secondly, and more specifically, if we were to go the route of making a recommendation to work with the legions, what obstacles would we have to overcome? What would we need to do to get there? And what do you perceive to be, from a bureaucratic level, the challenges?

Thank you.

[Darragh Mogan]

I'll start. My colleague, Ken, can add something.

Service to remote areas, whether to veterans or others, is always a challenge—and you would know this better than I.

What we can try to do, and have increasingly tried to do, is use electronic access better in remote areas. But you have to have someone there who can actually use it.