Veterans Affairs Committee on June 3rd, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Good afternoon, committee members. I want to start the meeting.

Before we get into the presentation, I want to tremendously thank the Australian high commissioner for appearing with us today.

Sir, I'm going to give you a kind of background in terms of what we're doing.

Since the new government has come into office, we've separated what used to be a national defence and veterans affairs standing committee into one that's national defence and, separately, veterans affairs. Having served on the previous committee, I think having a separate committee on veterans affairs allows us the ability to delve into veterans matters that often, compared to national defence issues, came across as less urgent. When government matters arose, oftentimes discussions were focused on the Department of National Defence and serving soldiers more than the veterans. So we've separated the committee.

We've just completed a health care review study, we've implemented a veterans charter, and we've instituted an ombudsman, for the creation of which we relied upon some of your country's testimony.

What we're looking at now is comparing ourselves in a broad swath of ways, other than just health care or ombudsman issues. We're looking at dealing with our other, in a sense, NATO or industrial or westernized, or whatever terms you want to use, allies—countries of comparable economic means—to see how we stack up and what we can do to improve.

One of the last groups we had in was the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. I was quite impressed with what they talked about in terms of the gravesites--105 going to 126 national gravesites they have for veterans, etc.

That is generally what's going on. You'll be given twenty minutes to split time as you see fit between the two of you. If one wants to take nineteen minutes and the other one minute, or whatever combination, that's fine. Then we have pre-assigned rotations for the first rotation and the second rotation for questions.

Once again, just for the committee members' benefit, I introduce William Fisher, the high commissioner for Australia.

It says “to be confirmed”, sir, but I see that your name is Adam Luckhurst, and we had the chance to meet just previously.

Gentlemen, now that you have a sense, the floor is yours. Thank you very much for coming on short notice.

[His Excellency William Fisher, High Commissioner, Australian High Commission]

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much indeed. It's a great pleasure and a great honour to be here today. I've appeared before various parliamentary committees in Ottawa, and that is a reflection I think of the policy closeness that exists between Canada and Australia as places to govern. By that I mean that the similarities and commonalities we share mean that the experiences we face as governments, as legislators, and as parliaments make the problems we have to handle of a very similar nature.

As you alluded to in your introduction, we have continent-sized countries; we have federal systems; we are Westminster systems; we have a very dispersed population; we have a similar income per head; we have similar expectations by the electorate; and of course we have an immigrant population drawn from all over the world.

But I think this committee adds a special area of interest and similarity between Australia and Canada, and that is the reflection of the common experience in warfare that Australia and Canada have shared over the last century or so. Australian and Canadian troops have fought side by side in most of the major conflicts over the last century. They were together in the First World War, quite spectacularly so--in fact, both Canadian and Newfoundland troops, in those days. We especially recall Newfoundland troops because they were the forces who came into Gallipoli with us in 1915, and they accounted so well for themselves there that a great deal of literature has sprung up from that experience. Australian and Canadian troops were, of course, side by side in the trenches of northern France in the First World War. The Battle of Amiens, perhaps the turning point of the First World War, was a battle fought essentially by Canadian and Australian troops. That's something we are very aware of today. In fact, just last month I think about 5,000 Australians visited northern France in commemoration of that great battle.

We were together again in World War II. I don't know if members of the committee are aware, but virtually all the Australian pilots, the Australian air crews who participated in the air war in Europe in the Second World War, trained in Canada. In fact, my colleague's father-in-law trained in many dozens of sites right across Canada in the Second World War. There resulted a number of marriages and mixed families between Australians and Canadians, as young Canadian girls went back to Australia with them, and of course quite a number of the Australian boys stayed and have now become good Canadian citizens. I think the greatest number of Australians in Canada date from that time of the empire air training scheme.

More recently, Australian and Canadian troops were together again and fought the same battles in the Korean War, where again, one of the turning points was a battle fought by Canadians and Australians.

You were with us in Timor, and of course we are now in adjacent provinces in Afghanistan.

We have, therefore, very similar experiences in terms of having sent our forces overseas. We have had troops killed in almost every continent; we have cemeteries in every continent except Antarctica; and we have a duty of care of a very similar order of magnitude, distances, and complexity as you. We are co-participants in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, and that gives us an obligation to watch over gravesites in so many countries of the world.

I've been a diplomat now for 40 years and I have never been in a posting on any continent where there has not been close at hand a Commonwealth war graves cemetery with Australian and Canadian forces buried in it.

The reason I say all of this is that the commonality of our experience is something that I think gives us a real interest in the workings of your committee. The former minister told me that she had used some Australian practices, and I can tell you that we'll be watching the debates of your committee and, if at all possible, we will be absolutely shameless in plagiarizing your good conclusions to bring to bear in Australia as well.

My colleague, Adam Luckhurst, is the personification of this. We have an arrangement with the Canadian veterans services administration to have a permanent exchange of staff. Adam is the lucky candidate from the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs in Canberra who has been posted to work inside the Canadian administration in Prince Edward Island. I'm very lucky that he is here today. He is actually the man who knows the real substance of the issue, and he'll make a speech about the issue and will be available to answer questions.

I just want to say that the functions of our Department of Veterans' Affairs are very like your own, covering not just the maintenance of the services to those survivors, but also a very important national role in the promotion of awareness of the sacrifices of earlier generations, particularly in outreach to schools and the public—in which I think we have quite a good record—on the national significance of these sacrifices of earlier, and now current, generations and their meaning to Australia. Every year, as you might know, we have a national celebration, Anzac Day. It is certainly the most important day of the year for Australians. It's essentially a commemoration of the sacrifice of our fallen soldiers in all wars, on all continents, in all times.

With that, Mr. Chairman, perhaps I'll pass this across to my colleague. Thank you once again for inviting us to come and speak to you today.

[Adam Luckhurst, Australian Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you, Bill.

I'm Adam Luckhurst. I'm a senior executive within the Department of Veterans' Affairs in Australia. As the high commissioner said, I'm very lucky to be on an exchange program with Veterans Affairs Canada for the next 18 months or so.

I've only been in Canada for about five weeks, so I'm rapidly learning about your country, and it's certainly a great place to be.

I've got a broad background in veterans affairs issues. The key areas I've been involved in are areas around rehabilitation policy, looking at our linkages with our defence force, our research program, and also management of some of our health services, particularly our hospital program.

I thought I'd give you a general overview of the way our department works and touch briefly on a couple of issues that I understand you're interested in; namely, around mental health and also transition for our younger defence force members. Following this, obviously I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

I would, however, like to stress that I have a broad knowledge of the veterans affairs system in Australia, but it is a very big program, it has a very considerable budget, and I may not be able to give you all the levels of detail you may wish. I'd be happy to provide that later if need be.

If I could talk about what the Veterans' Affairs portfolio looks like in Australia, primary within it is what we call our Repatriation Commission, which comprises three members: a president, who is also the secretary or the head of the Department of Veterans' Affairs; a deputy president; and a community representative, who is nominated by ex-service organizations.

The Repatriation Commission is essentially responsible for setting policies and making decisions under our Veterans’ Entitlements Act, which I'll come to in a moment. And that really, on a day-to-day basis, means it's the decision-maker for the granting of pensions and our provision of health care and those sorts of things. But obviously many of those decisions are delegated on a day-to-day basis to officers of the department.

We also have a Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Commission, which is very similar to our Repatriation Commission. It is comprised of the same three members and it also has a broader group of representation, which includes representatives from Defence, and they are administering our Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Act, which is in place for veterans who served after July 1, 2004.

We also have a Veterans' Review Board, which is responsible for reviewing decisions of the department particularly relating to entitlements--was a claim accepted?--or assessment, which is really about what level of pension is deemed to be payable.

We also have a Repatriation Medical Authority, and it's responsible for determining statements of principle in relation to medical or scientific evidence connecting injuries, diseases, or death with the circumstances of a veteran's service.

We also have the Office of Australian War Graves--I think Bill has given you a good picture of the nature of our war graves--and they're obviously responsible for managing our war graves and other commemorative activities as well. They are also responsible for publishing and maintaining nominal rolls of participants in previous conflicts.

We also have a couple of smaller bodies: the Specialist Medical Review Council, which is responsible for reviewing statements of principle established by the Repatriation Medical Authority; and the Veterans’ Children Education Board, which oversees the programs we administer relating to children's education as dependants.

Within the portfolio we also have the Australian War Memorial, which is our war museum. It is not just a museum; it also collects a lot of the historical records about people's service in various conflicts.

As I've alluded to, a number of different pieces of legislation outline the way our repatriation system works in Australia. Primary to this is the Veterans’ Entitlements Act, and that essentially provides for services for those who undertook missions up until June 30, 2004.

Three key services are provided under that act.

The first is the granting of disability pensions and income support to those who have war-caused disabilities.

The second is the provision of a comprehensive range of health care treatment services. Under these arrangements, veterans have access to health care services at no cost, and that includes hospital care, and that's within Australia's public and private systems; medical practitioners, primarily medical specialists and general practitioners; pharmaceutical items; and allied health treatments, such as dental, optometry, physiotherapy, podiatry, occupational therapy, and the like. We have a veterans home care program, similar to your VIP, which provides domestic assistance, personal care, home maintenance, and respite care. We provide aids and appliances, hearing services, transport, and also residential age care.

The third part of the act really provides for looking after the dependants of veterans, particularly war widows.

The second key piece of legislation is our Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Act, which came into force in 2004, and it really is very similar to our Veterans' Entitlements Act in its broad thrust. The key difference between the legislation is a significantly enhanced focus on linkages with the defence department and in particular the provision of rehabilitation.

The rehabilitation program is really aiming as far as possible to restore ability and function as close as possible to where the individual was before the injury occurred. And obviously in line with good practice, the program is required to cover medical, vocational, and psycho-social rehabilitation.

MRCA also provides serving or former Australian Defence Force members with payments when they are incapacitated by accepted conditions. These payments are based on their Australian Defence Force salaries and allowances. Reservists can have their payments based on their civilian and military earnings.

Compensation is then provided in cases where permanent impairment has been shown, and compensation can be paid in either a tax-free periodic payment, a tax-free lump sum, or a combination of the two. Funds are provided to enable the member to receive financial advice to determine which option is most appropriate to their circumstances. MRCA similarly provides for widows and dependants as well.

There is a range of other pieces of legislation but two I'll just mention very briefly. One is the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act, which provides for rehabilitation and compensation for Australian Defence Force personnel injured up until June 30, 2004, but not in a period of wartime. And also, the Australian Participants in British Nuclear Tests (Treatment) Act 2006, which provides for non-liability cancer treatment for those who participated in the British nuclear tests in Australia.

I'd now like to provide some information on the funding levels and numbers of clients.

Total proposed expenditure for 2008-09 for the veterans affairs portfolio is $11.6 billion Australian. The service provided by the department under the various pieces of legislation is split into four main outcomes: the provision of income, support, and compensation payments, for which the total is around $6.3 billion Australian in 2008-09; provision of health care services, for which funding is about $4.9 billion Australian this financial year; the provision of commemorative services to recognize the service and sacrifice of men and women, with funding for 2008-09 being $45 million Australian; and the provision of advice and information about benefits entitlements, and services, and funding in that area will total about $58 million Australian in 2008-09.

At December 2007, the Department of Veterans' Affairs had approximately 423,000 clients. Of these, over 137,000 have some level of accepted disability that has warranted the granting of a full or partial disability pension.

The department provides treatment cards to those who are eligible to receive one. Over 235,000 have a gold card, which entitles veterans to receive treatment for all conditions they have, regardless of cause. Approximately 52,000 have white cards, which enable them to receive treatment at no cost, but relates to war-caused disabilities only. We also provide orange repatriation cards to a small number of allied war veterans, including some Canadians—I think there are around 30 or so, so it's quite a small number indeed. The cards are provided to entitled veterans from World War II and enable the individual to receive a pharmaceutical allowance of $5.80 Australian per fortnight and pharmaceutical items at a subsidized cost of $5 Australian each.

Some allied veterans may also be eligible to receive a service pension from the Australian government. I believe there are a small number of Canadian allied veterans who receive the service pension in Australia as well.

I understand from the secretariat that there are a number of areas you are interested in. I would therefore like to briefly cover two of these, the first being services and supports to those with mental health conditions.

DVA has in place a comprehensive range of services and programs to meet the health care needs of those with a mental health condition. At January 2008, 52,227 veterans had an accepted disability in the area of mental health. This represents approximately 18% of those who are eligible for treatment under DVA's health care system. Almost 140,000 DVA clients receive some form of treatment for mental health conditions. So for those other people to whom we would be providing services outside of their war-caused disabilities, there is a considerable number of services being provided there.

We have a number of avenues for the provision of treatment. DVA operates the veterans and veterans families counselling service. It's a specialized confidential service that provides nationwide counselling and support to Australian veterans, peacekeepers, their families, and eligible Australian Defence Force personnel. The veterans and veterans families counselling service operates out of 15 offices throughout the country and has also established a network of approximately 500 private practitioners to assist veterans in regional, rural, and outer metropolitan areas.

Services available from the veterans and veterans families counselling service include counselling for individuals, couples, and families; clinical case management; crisis counselling, including after hours telephone support; educational and treatment group programs; lifestyle programs, such as heart health; the Stepping Out program for transitioning Australian Defence Force members; referral; and information and education.

Separate from the veterans and veterans families counselling service, individuals can access other health care providers, such as specialists, general practitioners, psychologists, and social workers, under the DVA health care system using their treatment card.

The department has also developed a range of education programs aimed at promoting an understanding of mental health conditions and how to get information, help, and assistance. The At Ease initiative is a suite of communication products developed for the veteran community about mental health and well-being issues. It encourages veterans to recognize possible signs, take appropriate action, and assume more responsibility for their own health and well-being. The At Ease branding will be used in all communications to veterans and health care providers and provides a focus on keeping your mind at ease, with the tag line of “Recognise, Act, Maintain”. The key elements of the At Ease initiative at the moment include a dedicated At Ease website, a 24-hour hotline, an information booklet for veterans, a range of fact sheets, resources for families and caregivers, and information for health care practitioners.

For a number of years, DVA has also operated the Right Mix program. This initiative was developed to reduce alcohol-related harm, to assist veterans to understand their alcohol use, and to provide avenues for information and further assistance.

The government has also recently established the mental health life cycle project, which is aimed at achieving a range of outcomes, including enhanced psychological resilience among serving personnel, better early intervention on mental health surveillance, successful transition from defence to civilian life for Australian Defence Force members and their families, effective rehabilitation support, and timely access to mental health treatment.

The first elements of the package are commencing in 2008-09. There needs to be an establishment of a transition management project and family support trial. That's occurring in Townsville, on the Queensland north coast--a study into the barriers to successful rehabilitation and an examination of treatment options for hard-to-engage clients. Work is now under way, in conjunction with the Department of Defence, which we're working with on this project, to finalize the details of those three projects.

The department also provides core funding to the Australian Centre for Posttraumatic Mental Health, which is an academic centre operating within the University of Melbourne, to continue its important work in developing further understanding of effective treatment strategies for a range of mental health conditions affecting war veterans and others.

The Minister for Veterans' Affairs and the Minister for Defence Science and Personnel recently announced a review of mental health care in the ADF and beyond.

The review will seek to assess existing mental health programs and support across the Australian Defence Force, in the Department of Veterans' Affairs, and advise on their effectiveness, gaps in services, and challenges in delivery. It would also examine and advise on transition processes between the Australian Defence Force and DVA. It is expected that a report will be provided to ministers by mid-December 2008.

The second key area I'll focus on relates to how the department and the Department of Defence are working together to improve both linkages and transition support.

DVA and the Department of Defence have a defence links program, which is in place to ensure close working relationships and to enable the improvement of support to veterans by both agencies. Some of the key areas of work today have tackled a range of different areas, and they include rehabilitation.

Under the Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Act, Defence has the prime responsibility for rehabilitation programs while an individual is a member of the services. DVA has the responsibility after discharge. So DVA and Defence are working closer together to ensure exchange of information and ideas, to maximize outcomes from rehabilitation for individuals.

Work is also under way to ensure that appropriate systems and linkages are in place to manage the shift from one agency's responsibilities to another when an individual accessing rehabilitation programs discharges.

We are also looking at transition management. A key area of focus for both departments is working on strategies to improve transition, and in particular close attention is being made to those being medically discharged, so that all claims and other issues are addressed prior to the point of discharge, wherever possible.

DVA already operates transition management services for those being medically discharged on behalf of the Department of Defence. They assist members sort through the range of issues they may have at transition and help them work out appropriate options for dealing with them.

A range of information products have also been jointly produced, and two pilot projects aimed at establishing improved processes between agencies concerning transition support have been established. The department, through the veterans and veterans family counselling services has also established the Stepping Out program, which is aimed at assisting defence force members considering transition to civilian life to understand some of the issues that may arise for them and how they can seek information and support to deal with them.

We're also working together in the area of health care. Close working relationships in the area of health care are also in place. This, in particular, covers areas of mental health, but we're also looking at preventative health care programs, such as hearing loss. There is a web-based program that's been put in place between the two departments in those areas.

We've also placed considerable attention on the area of records management between the two organizations. In particular, DVA now has access to some defence IT systems, which enable us to gather information about an individual's service, but we've also put in place streamlined arrangements for the management of paper-based records, which most of their decisions are still based on. This work has been very successful, and we've significantly reduced, as a result of it, the processing time for clients, for personnel.

Finally, there's also a close cooperation in the area of research in defence. DVA has established jointly a Centre for Military and Veterans' Health, an academic centre based at the University of Queensland. One of the key bits of work for that centre is undertaking some research, looking at some of our personnel who have been on more recent deployments, both in the Middle East and in Australia's near north.

I hope this has been of some assistance to you, and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

From the Liberal Party of Canada, Mr. Valley.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thanks for joining us today. We've heard a lot of comments on how Australia serves its veterans--serves them very well--and we can learn a lot from some of the systems you have in place. That's what we've been trying to do as we've crossed Canada. We've looked at a lot of the different services and how we might improve them. So when I'm asking my questions of you, I'd like you to look at closing some of the gaps that you've identified. You've explained some of the processes you use and how you're trying to make them better.

You touched on the mental health review, with the joint departments' new website called At Ease. It's all to do with mental health. Is this a new phenomenon? We have soldiers returning from Iraq. We both have soldiers returning from Afghanistan. They're facing different issues that they didn't face in conflicts decades before this. Is this a new focus on mental health?

[Adam Luckhurst]

The one conflict where we have experienced that—and Canada hasn't—is Vietnam. We have a significant number of Vietnam veterans who have post-traumatic mental health outcomes such as post-traumatic stress disorder. One of the strategies we put in place very early was the establishment of what was then called the Vietnam Veterans Counselling Service, which only last year changed its name to the Veterans and Veterans Families Counselling Service. It's not a new issue, in that we've been providing services in the area of mental health for many years.

I think there is a heightened awareness of mental health issues, and I think a lot of that has come from the work of Vietnam veterans, who talked to government and others about some of the health issues they faced following their service in Vietnam. Our health system has for some time had a broad range of services in place.

One of the differences we're facing at the moment is that we're dealing with a much younger group of people, and this requires different solutions. They are also much more Internet aware, and we have to adjust our communication techniques to their needs.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Let me ask a more direct question. We've looked into this issue and talked to different people right across Canada. We need to focus on mental health. It's a growing issue for us. When we actually started digging into it, we found we didn't have the resources, either on the military bases or in the private sector.

Canada is going through some pains. I'm not sure where Australia sits. We have shortages in all medical professions right across Canada. In mental health, we are struggling to provide services for our general population and our military. Is that true in Australia? How do we deal with it when we can't get the professionals?

[Adam Luckhurst]

I'm not sure of the answer to that, but we certainly have the same sorts of health workforce issues in Australia, particularly in some of our rural areas. We have a network of providers that link into our veterans of interest, the Veterans and Veterans Families Counselling Service, and people can also use our health care treatment arrangements. So if there's a health professional there, they certainly have no problem accessing treatment. But we are also looking at other techniques.

For instance, some of our Internet-based activities mean that people, wherever they are, can get support and assistance. We are looking at—and I don't know the details—things like tele-medicine. We want to use our clinicians based in the cities to provide services over the phone and through video conferencing to people in more remote areas. We are facing the same issues on the number of health workforce people who can help in this area.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Part of the problem, we're being told, is the resources in the military itself to provide mental health services for the enlisted people. There's much more money to be made in the private sector, so we contract. But even at that, we can't contract in the outlying areas, in the remote areas. We can't get the people who are actually going to provide the service.

Is that similar? Does the military have its own mental health workers, to a large degree, to provide that service?

[Adam Luckhurst]

The military certainly does have mental health professionals who work with them. I'm not 100% sure of the exact nature of their service, whether they're reservists or personnel. I can certainly find that out for you. But certainly they do employ psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health workers to assist them.

I would imagine that like the rest of the Australian community, they are also having trouble recruiting some of the medical workforce in those areas, because of the general overall shortfall.

I couldn't actually comment specifically on defence, because I'm just not familiar enough with their situation and where they're up to in terms of recruiting.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you. You've provided a lot of information. I probably only have a chance for one last question.

What we're trying to achieve is some kind of seamless transition for our soldiers going into private life. You mentioned several times in your discussion how your records and everything are changing. We do not have a system that is successful everywhere in Canada right now. We've seen individuals just recently who feel there's a total break. When they're in uniform they have service, they have everything they need, and when they drop out of service.... Many people in Canada, such as myself, don't have doctors; I haven't had one for many years.

In Australia, is it the perception of the uniform--the soldier--that he is going to be cared for properly when he leaves? Is it going to be a smooth transition, or are you working towards that?

[Adam Luckhurst]

My feeling is that people do believe they will be cared for when they leave. We are certainly looking at a whole range of strategies to improve transition, because it hasn't worked perfectly in all situations in the past.

We have the transition management service in place, which DVA operates on behalf of Defence. Part of the reason why that's in place is to help manage that transition process, particularly for those being medically discharged. I think in Australia, from memory, there are somewhere between 5,000 and 8,000 who are discharged from the Australian Defence Force each year, and around 8% to 10% of those are medically discharged.

We very much put our efforts into the medically discharged, but that doesn't mean we're not also looking at those who are voluntarily discharging. We try to make sure that they've got the sort of information they need before they discharge, so that if further down the track they realize they've got an issue that's related to their service--a health condition--they know who they can come to for support and service.

Certainly, there are so many different situations for different people, and we try to put in place a range of different services to meet those different needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. Perron, from the Bloc Québécois, you have seven minutes.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Good afternoon, gentlemen.

Thank you for being here this afternoon. I don't know where to start, but let me first give you a personal definition. I hate it when you talk about mental illness in the case of a soldier. I consider that the phrase “military psychological injury” is much more accurate. In my view, it is an injury that is equivalent to a shoulder or a leg injury, but it is being felt in a different fashion.

You said that you partnered with the University of Melbourne to do studies on post-traumatic stress syndrome. Do you have exchange programs, for example with the Sainte-Anne Hospital, which is beginning to be at the cutting edge of research and technology, and with the US Department of Veterans, which also boasts very advanced research on psychological injuries? Would you have some good information to give to our universities?

[Adam Luckhurst]

As I understand it, the Centre for Posttraumatic Mental Health at the University of Melbourne is an academic centre rather than one that provides treatment. But the director of that centre is renowned internationally for his knowledge of post-traumatic mental health conditions. He would certainly be liaising with professionals around the world.

He was the chair of the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies, and through that avenue he liaises with professionals and academics around the world in understanding what works, what doesn't, and what the latest research is saying. He provides that not just through academic peer-reviewed journal articles, but also through information updates in reports and things from his centre.

On other contact with some of the specialist centres, I understand that some of our mental health professionals liaise with others around the world, but I can't give you any details on to what extent that occurs.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Could you give us more detailed information on this subject?

I am also interested in another matter. You said that you were providing compensation to military personnel that were involved in British nuclear tests that were done in Australia. Surely there are civilians working for the military establishment, civilians who live around these so-called contaminated areas.

Are these civilians entitled to compensation? We have the same problem with the agent Orange tests that were done at the military base in Gagetown, and the surrounding population is abandoned because they have received no compensation, just as the civilians who were working on the military base.

Do you have the same problem? What are you doing for civilians?

[Adam Luckhurst]

The British nuclear tests occurred in the 1950s, as I understand it, primarily in remote areas of Australia and a range of different islands. The British Nuclear Tests Act only provides cancer treatment for those who were exposed during the tests in certain places; they are eligible to get white cards that provide payment for any cancer treatments they may have. I don't know the details. I'll have to get back to you on the levels of compensation. But certainly people had some level of coverage through some of the schemes that were in place at that time.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

We also have Native or Aboriginal people in Canada.

When dealing with these Native or Aboriginal people, are your officials from Veterans Affairs taking into account their culture, the place where they live, their religion and their language, in order to establish better relationships and provide better care? How do you deal with this problem that seems intractable here in Canada?

[Adam Luckhurst]

We are doing quite a bit of work in that area at the moment. We've recently employed some staff to do specific work with aboriginal communities. The first bit of work on that has been around the commemorative events that happen each year for our indigenous communities.

As far as special programs for them, we are at a bit of a disadvantage because our information doesn't actually tell us who are indigenous and who aren't. One of the pitfalls we have in providing tailored service is we don't know who these people are and where they live within our service. We are very aware of a number of indigenous personnel, and they are involved in the commemorative activities we're doing.

On our arrangements for compensation and the like, the same arrangements apply for them as for any other personnel. They're also able to access the same range of health services as any other member of the veteran community that has entitlement. But we don't fund specific veterans health services to provide coverage.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, sir. My time is up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you.

We now move on to the New Democratic Party and Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I apologize for being late, Your Excellency, and thank you so much for your presentation.

How many people are there in Australia? What's the population?

[Adam Luckhurst]

It's getting towards 21 million.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I have the budget for the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs as $11.6 billion Australian.

What's the Australian dollar to the Canadian dollar now?

[Adam Luckhurst]

It's getting up towards....