Veterans Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2009

[Marc Chalifoux]

Exactly.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Absolutely. So we'll do that for you.

It's interesting that you're here today, because I just did a member statement in the House on Joy Samms from Port aux Basques. This lady is so involved in speaking to schools, and you're right, it's because of her involvement with the Legion.

You mentioned about Legions probably filling the void there, where you haven't been able to get into the province. What relationship do you have with the Legions in the various provinces?

[Jeremy Diamond]

The Legions are an interesting group because they can be quite fractured. The local Legion branch may not know what's going on at the provincial command or Dominion Command, but you may have a really active secretary or somebody who works in that particular branch number who does just about everything.

From a local level, we're connecting with those individuals as much as we can. We have great relationships with Dominion Command here in Ottawa, with past and current presidents and all of the executive branch. We have regular conversations or correspondence with different provincial commands. We find that's where we've had the best success with information getting down to the local branches in each of those provinces, whether it's through an e-mail blast, a newsletter, or regular meetings.

Whenever we put an event together and blast it out to an invitation list, the first people we go to are the Legions. The first phone call we make is to our Legions, and we say that we are--as they may not know--the official in-school speakers' bureau of the Royal Canadian Legion. They probably know who we are through different ways. We tell them we're going to be holding an event and we'd love their Legion to be represented either by speaking there or at least by providing some information to their members to come and attend. The Legion, over the years, has been a great way for us to send our message out.

If we get a couple of very interested Legion members, the message goes to their meeting—which we hope happens kind of the day after we contact them or the day before the event—and takes advantage of that, and then hopefully that gives them some sort of opportunity to provide some information at the event itself.

It's hard when Legions are closing and the membership is really decreasing. The form the Legion took 50 or 60 years ago is much different now, and I think that as much as we can hold on to the relationships we have with different Legions from a provincial standpoint, the local ones would also help us. We need to keep an eye on that as well.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

You're right, of course. Legions are disappearing as our veterans die. I lost three veterans just last month, you know; they were in their nineties. It's always sad when that happens, even though you know the day has to come.

I'm just wondering about this. You said you recorded the memories of a lot of our veterans. Are those available through a library of some sort that individuals can access, in addition to schools accessing them?

[Marc Chalifoux]

The Memory Project digital archive was the project we did for four years, from 2002 to 2006. We recorded the oral history of veterans. It is available on our website, thememoryproject.com. There's a special section called the digital archive, which is a teaching resource we use all the time. We promote it to teachers, and you'll see in the D-Day learning tools that we handed out that these are stories from those veterans profiled in those learning tools. They share their stories on the digital archive. Those are available free to everyone, to every Canadian, to every teacher, to every student. They're used, again, as a primary resource.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much. That's just a short round this time of five minutes. Madam Foote, I'm sorry about that.

We have Mr. Lobb for five minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you again for being with us today. It has been very educational and informative, and I definitely appreciate Mr. MacDonell's contribution both years ago and ongoing. My grandfather, as I mentioned earlier, was a veteran in World War II. He was a drill sergeant and was stationed as a peacekeeper in Cyprus and in Germany years ago. I always looked up to him as a hero for sure.

This past week I had 29 members of the cadets up from our Goderich branch, and I know you referenced the cadets and various other groups, like churches and so on, but I wonder how you relate to the cadets. They were up here with their uniforms on and they looked very impressive, these young men and women. Where is that relationship?

[Jeremy Diamond]

It's a strong one. I think they were one of the first groups we went out to when, as a youth group, we first started the Memory Project in 2001.

After classrooms and teachers, cadets, for lack of a better term, “get it”. These are people who respect the importance of our military history, obviously, in terms of their training and the programming they work on within their units. They often come out to our events, whether it's a celebratory or a commemorative event, but we most like to have them at our training and orientation sessions. They sit with the veterans and talk to the veterans a little bit about their experiences. Some of these veterans themselves were cadets and some have grandkids who are cadets. They relate on all kinds of different levels.

So after a call to the Legion and to some of our local veterans associations, we'll go to the local cadet groups and their commanders, the heads of their units, to try to encourage them to attend events, sometimes in a formal role but oftentimes in an informal role, to sit with the veterans, eat with them, and learn about their experiences. Also, as I'm sure Mr. MacDonell will agree, the veterans themselves are so interested in the cadet experience and what it's like now: why they got into it, what they hope to do from the military side, whether they hope to eventually serve, which is often the case, and what kinds of experiences they're having with the cadets.

So it's a strong relationship and one that we think is a pretty obvious one. Again, we had a great event in Winnipeg last week, where we had with us a veteran from World War II and his son, who is a peacekeeper and who brought with him his son, who is an air cadet. They sat at the same table talking about the importance of intergenerational dialogue and sharing stories. We got some great photos of the three of them. They all came in their uniforms. The Second World War veteran still wears the same uniform he did in 1941, when he joined up. He's a slim, trim guy, and an amazing individual. To meet us with his grandson, who's probably about 16, was a great experience for him and his son, but it was also a great experience for us to see the real intergenerational approach to the Memory Project.

They are a good group to be involved with and to be engaged with throughout.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

You have obviously achieved great results with the Memory Project. We've heard that you're trying to get into provinces and territories where you currently don't really have a presence, but beyond that, where do you see the Memory Project moving in the short to the medium term, in the next one to five years, let's say?

[Jeremy Diamond]

In at least the next two to three years, we're really going to be making an effort to get to that next generation of veterans, those veterans that we may have not made the same effort to reach six or seven years ago, when the real effort was made to get the Second World War and Korean War veterans involved. There are our UN peacekeepers, and we'll work on the post-Korean War veterans.

I think a real effort for the future of this program is going to lie in engaging the CF men and women. I think we have great support from the general right on down, through General Leslie. They really have bought into this idea that the stories of our men and women currently serving are just as important as those of the veterans themselves.

When you're talking about military history, the link that can be made through the generations is, I think, a really interesting one for teachers. Again, I think this all comes back to the idea that teachers have to teach this in school anyway. The Second World War, the Korean War, and peacekeeping are all part of the unit in history, but the more that Afghanistan is on the front pages, as someone mentioned earlier, the more teachers are going to want to incorporate that into their classrooms.

So you can take on something that has happened currently and then have somebody who was involved with that campaign, or at least very closely associated with it, come in and talk about it from a current perspective. Then you can have somebody like Mr. MacDonell come in a few months later and say, okay, students, let's try to compare these experiences a little bit. They may be separated by 60 years. Somebody may look quite old and somebody may look quite young, but you can ask the same questions. What was it like to leave home? What was it like to work as part of a team? What was it like to fight for freedom? All of those experiences are very similar.

At first glance they may look very different, but again, I think the future of the project is going to be in engaging that next generation and having them work as much as we can now with the older generations, such as Mr. MacDonell's.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lobb.

Now we'll go over to Monsieur Gaudet for cinq minutes.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank Mr. MacDonell. On a number of occasions, I've attended ceremonies at Vimy, in Dieppe, in Passchendaele near Ypres, in Korea and elsewhere.

I'd like your opinion on something. Regarding attendance at a ceremony or at Remembrance Day ceremonies, the difference between what happens here in Canada and abroad is like night and day. Here in Canada, a handful of people come out to watch us lay a wreath, but overseas, hundred of people take part in these events.

My question is straightforward. Do we fail to recount our history? That's what I would like to know. Are we failing in this area? When we arrive in countries overseas, people run to greet us and touch us. They are happy and thank us, but here at home. . . Why are things so different? Perhaps it's because their countries were occupied and we were part of the allied forces. Why is it that so many Canadians do not know about our country's efforts during the war?

[George MacDonell]

That is a very important question.

I've noticed in the last ten years, and especially in the last seven or eight years, that there's a great deal more interest now amongst provincial politicians, provincial leaders. For example, the new wall at Queen's Park in Toronto is an example of the legislature doing something they had never done before, and that is to hold a great ceremony. I went to the ceremony with the minister of culture that day and I was astounded at the audience. It was enormous. We were all surprised. So there is a great deal more interest amongst our young people and amongst the public in general.

Secondly, I think Canadians are so un-warlike, and our military traditions have only been during some great crisis such as the crisis with Nazi Germany, that we're not very much interested in the army. I don't think the Canadian army has ever been seen as a really great career. Now I think that may be changing, but the military in Canada has been very small, usually housed up in Petawawa or somewhere, and I don't think we have much of a military culture. As mentioned, now that we are so involved in Afghanistan I think we're becoming more interested in why we are there, what it has to do with citizenship, who we are, and what this is all about. I think there's a great interest. Is this a good thing? Why are we over in this foreign country losing our young people? I think there's a great deal more interest now.

I hope that's a reasonable answer.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you. I now have a question for Mr. Chalifoux.

A while ago, you said that you commence preparations anywhere from six to eight weeks before Remembrance Day. The day after Remembrance Day, everything stops and you resume your activities a year later. If I compare what happens here to the situation in other countries, or at least in the countries that I have visited, ceremonies are held throughout the year in those countries. At 8 o'clock every evening, a ceremony is held in Ypres. I was fortunate to be there on November 11, Armistice Day. A huge crowd of people attended the ceremonies. It was incredible. Every evening, a brief, 10-minute ceremony was held in Ypres. Yours efforts are laudable, but it seems to me that you could be doing more.

[Marc Chalifoux]

I totally agree with you. I would like us to do more. We're constantly striving to do more. The Memory Project was launched in 2001 with the assistance of 12 veterans. Today, there are 1,500 veterans involved in the program. The numbers continue to increase. In fact, it is during the six to eight weeks before Remembrance Day that we receive between 75% and 80% of all requests from teachers for classroom visits. Part of this has to do with Remembrance Day, and another part with the way in which school curriculums are structured in Canada. That is the time of the year when classes study World War II or World War I. Certainly, we're trying to diversify the activities, to ensure that discussions of military history and Canada's history are not limited to once a year.

I completely agree with you. I can tell you that we have many visits scheduled for this year in late May or early June, to mark the 65th anniversary of the Normandy Invasion, or D-Day. Next year, 2010 will be a special commemorative year. I can't guarantee that ceremonies will be held every evening, but we will be doing our part. In my opinion, it's not enough to set aside only one day or one week per year to commemorate Canada's military history and the service and sacrifices of veterans. The Memory Project is not merely an initiative to help people recall our history. It was also designed as an educational tool that allows people who experienced these events firsthand and who wrote about them to educate others about Canada's role on the world stage. The Memory Project is a worthwhile initiative that can help educate students year round, whether the classroom curriculum focuses on World War II, the Cold War, peacekeeping operations or current events.

You compared what happens in Canada to events that are staged in other world countries. I can only say that in Canada, we need to do a better job teaching people about our country's history. Our organization is small. It has five full-time employees who endeavour to expand people's knowledge and appreciation of history. History is a degree pre-requisite in only four Canadian provinces. Students in Quebec must take two history classes in order to graduate. History is also a pre-requisite in Ontario, Manitoba and Nova Scotia. In the other provinces,students can attend school from grades 9 through 12 without having to take a single Canadian history course. This is not the direct cause of the problem you identified, but in my opinion, this situation is partly to blame.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

It's partly to blame.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Merci beaucoup, monsieur Gaudet.

We'll now go over to Mr. McColeman for five minutes.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I get to thank you a little more, especially Mr. MacDonell. I truly appreciate your being here and your commitment to this project.

I can't help but sit here and think about where it goes from there in terms of mentoring, as we've lost the World War I veterans and then we're so rapidly losing the World War II veterans. I know you're preserving stories and you're preserving documents and all the things that veterans...and we can't obviously stop the transition of life cycles. But I wonder what your strategies might be moving forward. I know we've talked about current veterans and Korean veterans and such, but are we doing any kind of mentorship of people--who I met as well at the breakfast meeting--who are just incredibly passionate and will be the people who take this message forward for generations to come, for my granddaughter, my grandchildren, and so forth? Is that something you see in the long term?

[Marc Chalifoux]

On the World War I front, Jeremy and I have a pretty unique job insofar as we get to interact with Canadian history every day. This year we met John Babcock, who's Canada's last living World War I veteran. We drove to Spokane, Washington, to meet with him for three hours, to interact with him and to hear his story. I think that living history of Canada's contribution to World War I is largely lost. It's really a very sad thing.

With regard to World War II, our World War II veterans are 86 or 87 years old, on average. At the Memory Project we'll do our part through the digital archives to record stories for posterity. We'll go the extra mile to make sure every living World War II veteran who wants to share their story in the classroom can do so. But there aren't that many years left of large numbers of visits by veterans who are 90 years old. We certainly need to be very aware of this problem, and I think the example of World War I veterans certainly should send a message to us. The committee is right to point to that, and you're right to point out that we need someone passing the torch of remembrance on, preserving memories of our World War II veterans. That's what we're trying to do here at the Memory Project.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I've been so moved in observing what Mr. MacDonell has referred to as an almost heightened awareness over the last number of years. I know in our community we have a thank-a-vet luncheon and it attracts 800 people. It's incredible. I've noticed that.

I think the message you've delivered today is that this is about the fact that we have this wonderful, free country. That's what this is about. This is leading to my question: what more can you do to help us know what we should be doing as legislators to make sure we preserve that and take that forward in a very real and tangible way? I'm not suggesting that it's going to be lost, naturally, but once the generations who served in the major wars and the world wars are gone, certainly it won't be as tangible as it is today. I just hope and pray that we will be able to carry it on.

I'm wondering if the Dominion Institute has a long-term vision for the things that we might be able to do and we might be able to help with.

[Jeremy Diamond]

One thing we definitely have found as our veterans are just generally slowing down--or passing away--is that those veterans who did eight or nine visits a year a few years ago are doing maybe one or two now. In some cases our number of veterans within the Memory Project are staying flat, for lack of a better term, or growing a bit. The frequency that they go on visits is obviously decreasing a little.

We've found more and more in recent events that children of veterans are coming to these events, representing their fathers, bringing their medals, talking about what they were told growing up and up to maybe a year or two ago when that veteran passed away. They're also bringing the medals to the table to have them scanned and digitized and they're having those stories recorded. We have quite a number of World War I veterans' stories recorded from the kids and grandkids who have spoken for them. We're seeing a really important passion from the kids, the grandkids, and the great-grandkids, but especially the children, people who are in their fifties and sixties, to carry on that tradition because they know how important it is.

The key in terms of keeping those stories alive, I think, is going to be in the technology. It's going to be in the opportunity to capture not only the textual and photograph elements of that story, but to also record their stories and to listen to a veteran speak. Recently I was on our digital archive and listening to First World War veterans speaking, whom we had recorded, who have obviously passed away. To hear the grainy voice of a First World War veteran, a combat veteran, is a remarkable experience for me as a history person, but obviously for students, to help them understand the important contribution the veterans made in the First World War.

So I think technology, engaging the next generations from their families, and also doing what we can to get teachers to keep that memory alive is important. And Mr. MacDonell has found that as well.

[George MacDonell]

I think this is a very important question. It's very important to carry forth the idea that, yes, we should thank the veterans, but we should also remember that the 1,100,000 Canadians who served in World War II were simply doing their duty as citizens of a free society.

I try to leave the students with the idea that it's not so much about thanking; it's to understand. Especially for the newcomers to the country, this is how you behave when your country has a crisis like World War II. You simply do your duty.

And to your earlier question about what questions are being asked, often the teacher will ask the students what we would do if there was another crisis like we had in 1939. There is often a very interesting discussion about whether a student would volunteer. Other students ask, well, if you're a citizen of this county, is there really any question...?

Our heroes are important, like Billy Bishop, but I think it's citizenship we should be stressing. One of the great values that the Dominion Institute can instill when people like me are no longer available is to point out how important it is to understand that this is part of your obligation if you want to be free. As Pericles said, “Freedom is the sole possession of those who have the courage to defend it.” He said that 2,000 years before Christ was born. It hasn't changed.

Now, I didn't properly answer the first question, and I'd like to add this. The girls always ask the intelligent questions. The girls always ask you how you felt when you came home, what your mother thought, and so on. The boys will ask how it works. I have to admit that with the girls, you have to be careful with their questions. They get right down to the nitty-gritty quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. MacDonell.

There's another rotation spot, if there are any other questions from the Conservatives.

Mr. Clarke, for five minutes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. MacDonell, Mr. Chalifoux, and Mr. Diamond for attending the committee.

Mr. MacDonell, the amount of hours you spend volunteering to document not only your stories but also other people's stories must be astronomical. Testing your memory and dealing with what you faced, and your ordeals, is no doubt quite difficult.

I'm curious about the number of schools you attend per year. How many, on average, do you attend?

[George MacDonell]

I've been attending as low a number as eight schools, and as high as 12 or 13, so it's about 10 or 11 schools a year. I'm often invited to speak to teachers, such as history teachers, who would like to have somebody help them with their teaching. I might have averaged a dozen a year over the last eight or nine years.