Veterans Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2009

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I have one quick question.

Thank you, Mr. Monaghan and Mr. Vickers, for coming in today.

I have just one question here about the cost. You mentioned that the quote was $32,000 for four panels, and that was to be contracted out.

[David Monaghan]

Yes. It was.... I'm sorry, I'll let you finish. I didn't mean to interject.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I was just going to say that you were quoted a price of $32,000 for four panels and you mentioned that it would be done internally. In the internal procurement, is there a quote given before work is initiated on a project like this?

I think it would be incumbent upon this committee to know roughly, or accurately, what the costs are going to be before we bring in.... Maybe it wouldn't be $32,000 because it's internal labour, but it is a large expense, at least in my estimation, and I think we should be fairly well apprised of the value before we initiate it, even though I do agree that it's a very important thing to recognize. Also, in these tough times, it's important to have a complete understanding of the cost, whether it is internal or external.

[David Monaghan]

The difficulty in some cases like this is that when a staff person is already employed, what are they doing? In fact, were the sculptor not doing this, he would be doing something else. It's just a matter of the immediate requirements for priority. I can ask Mr. White to come up with a budget, but it is a budget that basically would cover his expense.

I quoted a figure that was really based on if we were to go outside for this. Here we have an individual who is already an employee of the crown, with a specific responsibility to do carving for this building and other federal projects. Were he not to do this project, he would be working on another. I understand what you're saying, and I'd be happy to ask him if he can flesh out a budget for us, but it would be funds that would basically be used elsewhere if that were the case.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Yes, I can appreciate where you're coming from. As a former cost analyst, I understand that pretty clearly. Maybe a quote on time and we can extrapolate it from there.

[David Monaghan]

The estimate he provided me for the time it would take to complete the project from beginning to end was eight weeks. I can speak with him about that in terms of what that would actually entail. But again, yes, if you'd like me to do that, I would be happy to provide you with a breakdown.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

We, perhaps we can seek some guidance from the committee if that's the committee's goal on that one.

Thank you for your honest answer, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Are there any other questions from any of the other committee members?

I just wanted to say a couple of things to you, Mr. Monaghan. First off, I totally agree with you in keeping it simple and tasteful. It's an honourable goal, and I think it's very adequate for this room, considering this room is a modest size and the ceiling in this particular room is low because we're on a lower floor. I think if you had too much, it would be overwhelming, as you've said.

But I do agree with Mr. Kerr, as well, that trying to find one item—I don't know how you'd do it. But trying to find one thing that would speak to the broad generational expanse of veterans, the thing that came to my mind—and again, I would have to think more about it—is that one of the things I've heard at every veterans event is “At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them”. Trying to find something that unites them, from the First World War veterans to those of today, might be an impossible pursuit, but an honourable one.

I thank you for reminding the committee about the Centre Block being dedicated to veterans. The Peace Tower, of course, was constructed as a memorial to the 10% of the population of Canada who went to war in World War I, and of course 10% of them never returned.

The Senate, as well, is a place where there's much art work focused on the conflicts the Canadian military has been involved in. So it's my intention, if the committee will allow me, to send a letter to the guides in the precinct to make sure, if they're not mentioning that the Centre Block is dedicated to veterans, that they do so, either when they're in the Memorial Chamber pointing out that the inscription is downstairs or at the time they are downstairs they point out it's in both official languages and clear that the entire Centre Block is dedicated to veterans.

Unless there's any objection, it sounded to me—although there were some concerns—that the initial four panels were a good place to start. Do I have the notion correct that we have that consensus? So if September is the date, then I certainly look forward to seeing them, and then we may have some discussion in the future about some other elements. We'll leave it at that, the four panels, and then we'll have some discussion in the future regarding maybe a review of that.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I don't want to be difficult, but I'd really suggest this before we determine that. The committee has to make the decision as a group, obviously. I'm in basic agreement, but I'd really like to spend a little more time thinking about whether there is something we can add at the same time that is a more global look at the veterans that perhaps can be discussed at the same time. So I don't think we're going to say not to do that, but I think probably we could at least be thinking, before the next committee meeting, about whether there's something else or some other way to add to it. If not, then I'd say proceed. But there may be just that one magic panel we come back with and say yes, that's the one that should be front and centre, and the others can sort of support it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I'm certainly up for that. My call was for the committee just to be in consensus that the initial start was good, and the key word is “beginning” with the four panels.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I've been thinking about this as you've been speaking. I'm sure you've considered many alternatives, Mr. Chair, before we got under work here with this. I don't know the answer to this question, but another thing I've noticed with veterans I meet with and come into contact with is that another very personal matter to them is their medals. I don't know if there can be some wall-mounted showcase of all the medals that are available to veterans. I'm sure there are historic medals that no longer exist, but I just couldn't help but think. So I'm just putting that on the table as an idea, Mr. Chair. I don't know whether that would resonate with anyone else, but it's just an idea.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Monaghan.

[David Monaghan]

I'd be very happy to look into the possibility of that kind of display, if you will, or exhibit.

There are two things you have to bear in mind. The first is

it is quite possible that people will say that it's possible to make reproductions of these pieces. We could have reproductions of the medals made but that could create problems. I don't think it's a good solution. You don't want to put something that is false in a place like that, because people will become aware of it. And if they are not aware of it, they may find out that the medals are not genuine.

If you then say we cannot use reproductions, what we'll do is find the real McCoy, the real items, in which case we'd have to ensure that they're insured. Normally, there are costs associated with loans from the War Museum, for example, in which case there are loan issues, there are conservation issues, because you have to ensure that they're cleaned regularly, the cases are cleaned, etc.

I'm not suggesting it's not a good idea. I am simply outlining that from an operational standpoint it creates some difficulties. If the committee feels it would like me to look into that opportunity or that option, I would, of course, follow your lead. But I do think there are some pitfalls, to be honest, and I only wish to point out that this is why we avoided objects to begin with.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Monaghan, there's one more question that might clarify it for the added concern. If we go ahead with the four panels, does that preclude us adding anything in the future?

[David Monaghan]

No, not at all.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Does that clear up any concerns?

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I'd still like to have one more crack at it and see if we can come up with one that encompasses them all, rather than go with four. I see five panels of some sort, that's all I'm saying. I'd hate to go with the four and say the one that we might agree with doesn't really fit in. I mean, for the sake of one more conversation, it may well be that there may be somebody appropriate within the Department of Veterans Affairs to sit down with and talk about it, to make sure.

I don't think we're far apart. I'd only hate us to come back in a few weeks and say we wish we'd thought of this, or taken an extra step there, or whatever. That's all I'm getting at. It's not to delay it, but only to add the other dynamic that might be there.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Stoffer, then Mr. Gaudet.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chair, I think we're all in agreement with the four. Obviously, the RCMP is one we could look at as well, but for the sixth one that Mr. Kerr is talking about, I think we can invite someone from the Department of Veterans Affairs, as he says, and talk it over at another time and see where it could be appropriate. But if they want to get started on the four, maybe we'll let that sculpture go ahead, if we all agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. Gaudet.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

If we are the ones who decide, what will the department come and tell us? We could decide that the four panels are fine, that we agree with that. I would prefer to have the sculpture of a soldier somewhere in a corner. That's one opinion, but I agree with the four panels. Otherwise we could end up calling everybody. I think that we're old enough and capable enough to make these decisions. I agree and that's all. Otherwise this could go on forever and in two years we'll still be talking about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Madam Sgro.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

To close the discussion, I think we should move on with four, so that when we come back in September that work would be completed.

However, I certainly think, if we have another idea over this next little while, following on what Mr. Kerr was suggesting, for another one or two.... But at least we would have gotten the project started. There's no saying that we can't add to it. So I think we should move on the four and stay very open-minded about any other idea that any of us may come up with through consultation with any of our veterans, or with another good idea for another panel, and go forward and do it.

I think we should get started on the four. Otherwise, this may leave today and we may not see it again. Then in a year from now, someone will raise the issue about what happened to those four panels we were going to.... At least we'll know we have gotten something concrete done in this room by September.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I've been avoiding trying to have a vote on this and trying to get consensus. Do we have consensus for the four? And then we can add. We are in another Parliament now, talking about this.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I want to emphasize that I was never in disagreement with the four. I just think we have to keep looking for the one that sort of embellishes something greater than just the four. That's all.