Evidence of meeting #32 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was years.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Military and Royal Canadian Mounted Police Veteran, As an Individual
Excuse me, I'm not fluent in French.
Military and Royal Canadian Mounted Police Veteran, As an Individual
... but I can tell you it is difficult to give you a table like that. However, I can give you my table.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
No, I would like to have the table for someone who was in the Canadian Armed Forces and had no problems. They were not injured and finished their career in the Canadian Forces.
If I make a decision, I don't make it based just on someone who had an accident on the job. I want to see Mr. O'Handley's case, because he is a typical case. But I want to see the case of someone who had no problems throughout their years of work.
Military and Royal Canadian Mounted Police Veteran, As an Individual
For my table, let's say that fewer than 1% of members of the Canadian Forces achieve my rank.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
No, I'm talking about everyone in the military, in general.
You must have tables that show the rates, after 20, 25, 30 and 35 years. That's what I want.
Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion
I imagine it would be fairly easy for the Canadian Forces and the RCMP to provide a table. They have that, it also includes the benefits they pay,
benefits and disability.... I can't remember exactly what it is in the Canadian Forces right now.
They have a general table, for everyone.
Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion
It's not even disability, but a pension calculation thing. The Canadian Forces benefits people would be able to provide it for the military, and the RCMP would be able to provide it as well.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
Can you send that to the clerk? He will have it translated into both languages.
National President, Syndicat des agents correctionnels du Canada, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
We will be pleased to provide you with that, Mr. Gaudet.
Bloc
Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC
They have to be sent to the committee so that everyone has the same information.
Do you have something to add, Mr. O'Handley?
Retired Constable, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I understand your question. I think it would be a difficult thing to do because we all retire at different ranks. I retired as a constable, so I would get the lowest. If I were a staff sergeant, I would be making more money.
I have a good friend who's a staff sergeant in the RCMP. We started working on the same day. He is still working, but at the end of 32 years, if he had retired the same day as I did, he would have had a substantially bigger pension than I have, because he would have made more money as a staff sergeant than I made as a constable. Therefore, his 64% would be a lot higher than my 64% in the same number of years, because we retired at different ranks. The higher the rank, the more money you make.
If I went on a disability pension after 32 years, and he went the same day after 32 years as a staff sergeant, he would make more money than I would. His pension would be higher because he made a higher salary, so his five-year average would be higher. I might be able to tell you what I'm going to get, but I wouldn't be getting what he's getting, because he has acquired a higher rank. An inspector would get a lot more money, and so on up the line.
Conservative
November 5th, 2009 / 10:25 a.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Gentlemen, I want to thank you for being here. It is an honour to have you with us. I'm sure it goes without saying that we have a profound respect and admiration for those who wear the uniform and protect our country. In my personal case, I can tell you I have a profound respect for anyone who wears a uniform and puts his life at risk for the safety of others, and that includes my son-in-law, who's a municipal police officer. I've served on the police services board, and as vice-chair I had first-hand knowledge of the daily routine of those who put on uniforms and serve the public. My father was a firefighter through the 1950s and 1960s, and he risked his life many times in service to others.
When it all boils down, there's no pleasure in dealing with issues like this with people we so strongly respect and support. Frankly, there isn't. The one witness we heard through Mr. Hawnsaid something that resonates with me. He said that, in all honesty, this pension plan is not stacked but blended. The CF and RCMP pension plans are fair and generous in comparison with other pensions. The PSSA and other federal pension plans, provincial pension plans, most teacher plans, and many others are set up in exactly the same way. My daughter's a teacher, I know something about the teachers' plans. To the best of my knowledge, there are no organized campaigns by members of these other pension plans claiming that they are unfair.
Could you help me understand why these plans are fair and the CF and RCMP plans are unfair?
Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion
From the Legion's point of view, I'd say that we are asking for fairness.You're looking at a picture in time, a generation of people who, in the mid-1960s in the Canadian Forces, had their benefits changed and probably didn't fully understand how these changes would affect them when they retired at age 65. This goes back to the issues of communication and understanding.
Mr. Labelle was a financial counsellor, counselling other members of the Canadian Forces on their pension benefits, and he didn't even know about this. I was a simple soldier.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Could I respond to say that what you are saying to me is that the issue is a communication issue, not about the fairness or unfairness of a particular pension plan?
Dominion Secretary, Royal Canadian Legion
There are issues ranging from the changes that were made in 1965, and those have to be addressed. I'm not saying they don't have to be addressed. I'm saying maybe this pension plan that is in place today is a fair pension plan compared, as you have done, to other pension plans. We do have issues.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Believe me, I just want to get a better understanding. I'm not trying to be confrontational. I want to get a better understanding, because when you do compare it, this plan is fair and generous compared to other plans, sir.
Military and Royal Canadian Mounted Police Veteran, As an Individual
Sir, with all due respect, I don't think we should be comparing with the civilian population whether or not they are satisfied with their pension plan. I don't think we should be comparing. They have unions to represent them, to look after their welfare, to look after their benefit. I know for a fact--I was told this by some civil servant employee--they were told by the Government of Canada that negotiation with regard to pension was off limits. I don't know if that's true or not, but I don't want to get into that type of conversation. We should only be considering ourselves with the veterans. They paid, but to be prepared to sign a blank cheque that may include your life, to come back home with broken limbs...the wear and tear of a body.
I spent 15 years on ships. Sir, you want to try it around the banks of Newfoundland when your stomach is turned upside down. I am a different government provider. I spent five and a half years in isolation. I served at Masset on the Queen Charlotte Islands. You want to try that for a little while. I served in Goose Bay, Labrador, sir, where the temperature went down to 101 degrees below zero. I served in CFS Lac St. Denis--twenty and a half years of my life in isolation, in operational units.
I am not the only person in the armed forces who does that. We're all doing it, sir, so therefore we are a different government provider and we should be treated differently. We were not told. We were not briefed properly. Therefore now we are asking that you give us justice and fairness.
Thank you, sir.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Could I respond to that, please, sir?
Sir, I respect you tremendously. I respect you and everyone who has worn a uniform. I said that from the outset. I respect the fact that every day law enforcement officers put the uniform on and risk their lives, as do other people, and I totally respect what you do. It is something that, believe you me, is not taken for granted. I want you to understand that. My comments were not directed at this at all. I want that on the record.
Military and Royal Canadian Mounted Police Veteran, As an Individual
I appreciate your comments, sir. I want you to understand, though, that my wife has a college degree education. Because she followed me around the country, sir, her CPP pension is $75 a month. That's not fair. That's not fair to the veterans.
Thank you, sir. I appreciate your comment, and I respect you very much.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Gentlemen, again we are away over time. I like to give a lot of latitude, and I have today.
Now I'll go to Mr. Andrews from the Liberal Party, for five minutes.
Liberal
Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing my time with Madam Sgro.
Thank you all for coming in. It's a pleasure to hear your stories and to learn more about this issue. As someone who is new to Parliament, I think it's great to hear your stories.
I have two questions. My first question is looking back to the history. This has been since 1965-66. We're now in 2009. It seems this issue has come to a head now. Can you give me a little bit of an understanding why this hasn't really been addressed in the last 40 years? Why are we dealing with this now? Why couldn't this have been addressed 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago?