Veterans Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2010

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

Gary, welcome.

I'm going to be very brief, because Mr. Lobb is anxious to ask a question. But I do want to say that I think you've struck a terrific balance between the reality that there are families who say that what they do with these is nobody's business but theirs and the absolute imperative that we make sure our heritage is protected. You've probably put a focus on this that's going to be very helpful going down the road, so congratulations.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Mr. Schellenberger, as you would like me to call you--

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Yes.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

--I grew up in the auction business and worked in it for over 20 years. You can imagine the different items that came through our auction business. There were medals and uniforms and everything.

I can appreciate what you've put in your bill. You mentioned in your speech that quite often there is no family and an executor or a trustee is left with the estate. His or her job is to finish the estate and pay up any outstanding debts or liabilities that may be on the estate, and of course this would be part of it. Certainly executors or trustees have to do their job and represent the estate, so I appreciate what you've put in there as well.

I agree with what you're saying. With museums, there is no cookie cutter for where they should all go, because they each have a special place. I know that in the Clinton Legion there is a replica of the Victoria Cross for one of the Schoenhals from Clinton. That medal is in safekeeping at the Huron County Museum in Goderich. We're quite happy to have that. As they come through the ranks at school, children of all ages get to see that medal, and I think they're better for seeing it and knowing the history that is with that medal.

Thank you for your hard work.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you.

I would like to speak to that point. We talked earlier about how to get the word out to people. In the case of the auction business, if the auctioneer knows these medals are protected, he could advise the executor on how a medal should be treated.

I'm quite sure that if we all work together, with a little tweaking--if that's what it takes--we could make this a very good bill.

I thank you very much for the great questions today.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger.

You have three minutes, Mr. André.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

The issue of selling the medals for money does indeed pose a problem, but, from what I understand, these medals are already being sold and traded. How do we go against existing legislation that allows them to be sold? That is not an easy question to answer. I just wanted to tell you that I share some concerns. How do we create a system that values the awarding of a medal, while allowing the person to sell it on the market? How do we balance those two realities? It is not easy, in my opinion.

In addition, I do not really know how we put a price on a medal. I would think the more distinguished it is, the more it would cost. I would also think the older it is, the more it would cost. There must be some way of marketing these things that I am not familiar with. I would like you to comment on that.

The bill says that museums can buy the medals. I would think that when the bill comes into force, there may be people interested in selling their medals to a museum. But can all the museums afford to buy them?

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

You're right there. I don't think museums can afford to buy them or to buy all of them. This bill isn't out there to buy every medal that has been presented, but again, significant medals... As for when you talk about price or where the price might be, well, for a service medal, everyone who served got a service medal, but not everyone got a Silver Cross. There were very few Silver Crosses.

So I'm sure a Silver Cross would garner a higher price than a service medal. At the same time, the service medal that belonged to the person who got the Silver Cross would probably be... I'm only thinking. This is where they might get some value.

My thing is that museums can't afford to buy them. This is not a bill to scoop up every medal that has ever been made. That is not what the previous bill, the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, did. The museums would look at that particular medal. It would go to a review board. The review board would say whether or not they were interested in it and if it could go out of the country. It's that way.

Again, my bill is not to change everything; it's to give recognition and the same respect to our modern medals that we do to our medals that are 50 and 100 years old.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger and Monsieur André.

In your research in drafting this bill, were there any examples of nations that honoured a soldier with a medal and that medal was still the property of that government? For example, for us being a federation under a monarchy, the medal would be given at the behest of the Queen, but the crown would require it back on the demise of the individual, as it was a sign of merit from the crown. In your research, are there any nations that do that?

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I did not research that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Schellenberger.

Thanks, colleagues, for your questions.

We'll suspend for a moment and have our other witnesses come forward.

Of course, you can take a moment to greet Mr. Schellenberger as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

All right, colleagues, we're back in session now.

Before us we have Mr. Mark O'Neill, director general, and Mr. Jim Whitham, acting manager of collections for the Canadian War Museum.

Welcome, gentlemen.

We also have with us an old friend from the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping, Mr. Ronald Griffis, who's the national president.

Welcome, Mr. Griffis.

Do all three of you gentlemen have opening remarks?

[Mark O'Neill, Director General, Canadian War Museum]

I think Mr. Griffis and I both do, but Mr. Whitham does not, so there are just two of us.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

All right, then, Mr. O'Neill, since you gave me the answer to that question, how about you go first and then we'll have Mr. Griffis? Then we'll go to our rounds of questions.

[Mark O'Neill]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the committee for this opportunity to comment on Bill C-473. We're pleased to do so on behalf of the Canadian War Museum and are greatly honoured to be here before the committee today.

We certainly appreciate the bill's underlying spirit as outlined by Mr. Schellenberger. We share the conviction that Canada must preserve and promote its military history, which of course includes the service and sacrifice of our veterans. This is why one of the key messages of the Canadian War Museum is “I must remember”.

For the record, I must say that the Canadian War Museum, an affiliate of the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation, an independent agency of the crown, can neither endorse or oppose legislation before Parliament, as you know. I am pleased, however, to share some facts and observations that may assist you in your deliberations and the important work you do.

In my remarks, I will briefly speak to the significance and extent of our current collection of medals and insignia. I will give an overview of our current acquisition process, and I will discuss some of the ways in which the bill could impact the museum. Then I will be happy to answer any questions.

As you know, the Canadian War Museum was given a mandate, as determined by Parliament, to collect, preserve, interpret and display military artifacts of national significance. The museum is charged with educating Canadians about their military heritage and encouraging them to reflect on what veterans endured for their sake.

Military medals and insignia are part of that heritage. They are powerful symbols of the service, dedication and courage of the men and women who have worn the Canadian uniform. They have an important place in the national museum commemorating our military history.

At present, the War Museum has about 4,500 items in its collection of medals. The collection is restricted to decorations awarded to Canadians or foreign nationals while in the service of Canada. Some are displayed in our permanent exhibition galleries, which explore Canada's military history from earliest times to the present day. Others are held in safekeeping among our national treasures. All assist in the preservation and the telling of our national story.

The vast majority of these artifacts were donated to the War Museum by service members or their families. For example, just in the past five years since the new museum opened in 2005, we have acquired about 190 medal sets, 164 of which were donated by their owners. Among the most recent donations were two Victoria Crosses, one from the First World War and the other from the Second World War. The financial compensation available to donors is a tax benefit equal to the medal's assessed value.

As mentioned, the museum has seldom purchased medals or insignia. We have done so only when the artifact had outstanding significance and the funds were available. The museum recently purchased a Victoria Cross. It was one of three such medals awarded during the First World War to residents living on the same street in Winnipeg, which was renamed Valour Road in their honour. The medal is of course incredibly valuable to the museum and the country, and was purchased at an auction.

Regardless of whether it is through donation or purchase, the museum will not add a medal to its collection unless it is in keeping with the museum's mandate and satisfies a number of criteria. For example, the museum must determine whether the medal is authentic and whether the person making the offer is legitimate.

Before purchasing an artifact, the museum must of course determine whether the object is of outstanding significance to Canada's military heritage or whether it fills a significant void in the museum's current collection.

That's the background, Mr. Chair.

I'll turn briefly to the bill itself and highlight some criteria or elements of the bill that may have an impact on the War Museum's current acquisition process.

As I mentioned, we don't currently purchase medals as a matter of course, and therefore we don't maintain a significant budget for that purpose. So if Bill C-473 is passed as is, the museum will require additional funding to allow the purchase of medals at assessed values.

Another issue I would like to bring to your attention is the 120-day window for the museum to accept or decline an invitation to purchase a medal at fair market value. First, artifact appraisals conducted by a national museum must be quite thorough, as I'm sure you can imagine, and the appraisal can be a time-consuming process. We would not want to make those determinations with undue haste. And second, if the medal is deemed to be of significant value, it could take time to secure the necessary funds.

In light of these realities, we believe that Parliament should consider an amendment to paragraph 3(1)(b) of the bill that would instead indicate that a government institution has 120 days to respond to a written offer before the owner can transfer the insignia to a non-resident. That would give the museum more time to assess the medal and, if required, obtain the necessary funds.

Finally, the museum has always had the authority necessary to make its own decisions about whether artifacts should be added to the national collection. The museum has always based those decisions on the facts of the case in question, free from any influence or external pressure.

As stated in section 27 of the Museums Act, “No directive shall be given to a museum...with respect to...the acquisition, disposal, conservation or use of any museum material relevant to its activities”.

We would welcome an addition to Bill C-473 that would explicitly safeguard the integrity and independence of the museum's decision-making process. That could be ensured by expressly stating that the museum's decision to accept or decline an offer is final and not subject to further review.

Those are my opening remarks, Mr. Chair. Thank you for this opportunity. I would be pleased to answer any questions that members may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. O'Neill.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Griffis for his opening remarks.

[Ronald Griffis, National President, Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping]

Thank you, sir.

Honourable members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for inviting the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping, CAVUNP, Canada's pre-eminent peacekeeping veterans association, and the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, CPVA, to this committee to make comments and suggestions pertaining to Bill C-473, An Act to protect insignia of military orders, decorations and medals of cultural significance for future generations.

My name is Ron Griffis. I'm the national president of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping. I have been given authority by the president of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association, Mr. Ray Kokkonen, to speak on their behalf.

It should also be noted that I am a member in good standing with that particular organization, and that as recently as this Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, I was at a convention in Winnipeg and in the company of the presidents of several veterans associations. As I understood the situation, they were not aware of Bill C-473.

Our two associations, CAVUNP and CPVA, work hand in hand on most, if not all, veterans' issues. To prepare for this matter, I sought information and suggestions from our colleagues.

All of my colleagues were not aware of Bill C-473 and were surprised at my request. The comments I have received are mainly their personal opinions on what should happen with respect to their medals and awards. I respectfully suggest that Bill C-473 has not received wide circulation.

In general, our associations support the bill. We are aware of things that have occurred in the past that have required the federal government to act very quickly to prevent military orders, decorations, and medals of cultural significance from leaving the country or being sold on such venues as eBay.

This particular bill would cause sellers or persons wishing to dispose of such items of cultural significance to follow the letter of the law and permit the various authorities to act as required. It has been suggested by my colleagues that this type of legislation is not necessarily required in most cases, as it seems that what it would take is a simple act of will on the part of the government. For instance, when something of considerable significance to the country comes on the open market, it may simply be a matter of the government telling the bureaucrats to go and get it.

The act provides a balance that may be used in circumstances requiring some official undertakings. It may also be used to provide a cooling-off period to permit authorities to research an issue to determine what, if any, cultural significance a particular item may have.

Time restrictions have prevented me from contacting my friend and colleague, retired Colonel Donald Ethell. Recently, on April 8, 2010, Colonel Ethell was appointed as the Lieutenant Governor of the Province Alberta. I wanted to contact him to ascertain his view on this subject.

Colonel Ethell is a member of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping and, as you are perhaps aware, is Canada's most decorated peacekeeping veteran. Prior to his appointment, Colonel Ethell was our association's liaison officer with Veterans Affairs Canada.

From my personal knowledge of my friend, I am quite certain he would have an opinion with respect to this bill. While I do not speak for Colonel Ethell, knowing what I know of my friend and colleague, I respectfully suggest that he would support this bill.

As I have mentioned, in short, our associations support this legislation and trust it will be passed into law.

Once again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before this honourable committee to make comments.

In the service of peace, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Griffis. Because you mentioned Colonel Ethell, I just want to let you know that this committee did very promptly send a letter of congratulations to him when he was appointed the Lieutenant Governor of Alberta. I trust he has received that.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Oliphant for seven minutes of questions.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thanks to both of you for being here.

I have a couple of questions for Mr. O'Neill.

How much did the museum pay for the Victoria Cross that was purchased at auction?

[Mark O'Neill]

The answer is that $240,000 was the auction price. That does not include the administrative fees, but $240,000 was what we call the “hammer price”. You're speaking about the Robert Shankland medal that we purchased last year, I think.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Okay. That helps, because I'm trying to get some magnitudes here. That medal would have already been protected because it's over 50 years old.

[Mark O'Neill]

That's correct.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

It's pretty hard to go into the future to see what the market is for other medals, I guess. It's a little bit hard.