Veterans Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2010

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I will share my time with my colleague.

We very much look forward to receiving the information on the value and names of the medals.

[Mark O'Neill]

Thank you, Mr. Vincent.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I have two questions, one of which was asked earlier, but I wonder whether you might know the answer.

Do you know of other countries that have put a similar mechanism in place to sell medals to museums? That is my first question. Are there policies that exist? If so, what are they? Should we use them as a model?

My second question is this: Should this kind of bill give us some cause for concern? We are not challenging it, but I am asking the question.

Take the art market, for example, paintings, specifically. There is always a formal market and a black market or smuggler's market. With all the mechanisms we have today for selling something, a Victoria Cross could be put up for sale for $250,000. Could some people not use that as a way to make auction prices go up, for instance, if you have the museum offering $240,000 when an individual is offering $250,000? Is that a concern? What can be done to stop that practice? Perhaps we could use what other countries are doing as a model.

[Mark O'Neill]

Thank you for your question, Mr. André.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you for answering me in French.

[Mark O'Neill]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, I have to say that we do not know the exact systems being used in other countries or other museums around the world. I am not familiar with those. That is not something we studied in preparation for our appearance here today.

As for whether there would be a black market, it is hard to say, because it is really a matter of policy. In my opinion, it does not seem to be a very important or fundamental consideration for a museum. I believe there is currently a system that protects the purchase of medals and military artifacts. That is the responsibility of the Department of Canadian Heritage and the people working in the area of cultural property. I do not think that is something that will become a problem for museums that collect artifacts such as medals.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. O'Neill and Monsieur André.

Mr. Griffis.

[Ronald Griffis]

May I make a comment on styling the act by looking at other countries?

We have styled our new Veterans Charter on the British, the Australians, and to some extent the Americans, and we now know that the new Veterans Charter has failed the severely injured veteran. It has failed families and it has failed the severely injured veteran, as we heard yesterday in the subcommittee in the Senate.

So I would say no. As Canadians, we should make our own way.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Griffis.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Stoffer for five minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Again, gentlemen, thank you all very much for coming.

Mark, my first question is for you and Jim. Have you ever bought an Order of Canada?

[Mark O'Neill]

Have we?

[Jim Whitham, Acting Manager, Collections, Canadian War Museum]

No.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

The answer is no, because you can't.

[A voice]

That's right.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

You can't buy an Order of Canada, because it's illegal.

In my response to Mr. McColeman's question... In fairness, he probably hasn't had a chance to read my bill, Bill C-208, which would make illegal the selling of medals of armed forces and police personnel that are worn on the left side, like what Mr. Griffis is wearing, and which basically would take away their so-called fair market value.

The reason I say this is that I'm quite offended when I see medals at garage sales, at flea markets, or on eBay, the reason being that somebody else is going to financially profit from the valour of people like Ron Griffis, Don Ethell, Cliff Chadderton, Tommy Prince, or whomever. They got those medals for valour and for honour and service. They didn't get cash. The government didn't stand up and a general didn't hand out a $100 bill to everyone on parade.

So I don't know why society thinks it's okay for future generations to make money from these medals. They're not currency. They represent much more than cash, and I firmly don't believe that everything in our society has to be turned into fair market values, tax incentives, or cash. I find it quite offensive.

I know that Mr. Schellenberger is here, and I can assure him that if all the major veterans groups are supportive of this bill, I certainly won't do anything to stop its progression. I just want to put on the record that I find it objectionable that these medals can be sold, turned into cash, or have a financial incentive on them.

I don't mind people collecting medals. I don't mind people receiving medals. But I know of many cases where medals have been stolen out of homes. Mr. Schellenberger talked about decorating things; they go and steal the medals and they sell them on eBay, because they look at money. It's only money to them. The medals have much more significance than cash. That's my problem with the incentive of the bill...

My question, first of all, is to Ron. Has there been a thorough discussion among you and veterans groups regarding putting value on these medals? Because Mr. O'Neill and his group are going to determine, through a chart process or some circumstance, which medal is significant and which is not.

Mr. O'Neill, with great fairness, I think 50 years from now, if you passed away tomorrow, the War Museum is not going to look at your medals as significant to Canada. But they're damn well significant to you and your family, and to your friends and associates. Because he doesn't have a Victoria Cross, a Silver Cross, or an MM or wasn't a famous Canadian like a General Hillier or a Tommy Prince or something... So this is my problem.

When they all stand on parade and get their medals, they're all equal. They're all proud. I spoke to Smokey Smith on many occasions. He said that he wasn't just proud of his Victoria Cross; he was proud of all his medals. But the only one that gets people excited is the Victoria Cross he wore. All his medals were significant to him and his family.

I'd just like your opinion on that and, Ron, your opinion as well. Have you spoken to groups like the Legion, or the Army, Navy and Air Force Veterans, and will you in the future talk to cross-veterans groups on the importance of Mr. Schellenberger's bill? It is important, there's no question about it, but I just wish we could take away the financial incentive on that. I know there are property rights and everything else, but not everything has to be turned into cash. That's sort of my little commentary for you.

Thank you.

[Ronald Griffis]

Over the weekend, as I have previously mentioned, I was in company with approximately 1,200 to 1,500 other veterans. When I received notification with respect to attending here, I discussed it with the president of ANAVETS, the president of the Royal Canadian Air Force Association of Canada, and other legionnaires, and it was a surprise to them.

So we have not discussed it. As a matter of fact, with respect to the value, it's probably a non-issue. It's a family issue.

[Mark O'Neill]

Mr. Chair, I could just respond quickly to Mr. Stoffer.

One thing is important to mention, as I think you know. You've been to events at the War Museum several times. One of the messages in the War Museum, or one of the key ideas, is about ordinary people doing extraordinary things.

Of the 4,500 medal sets we have, the bulk of them would in fact belong to people who are relatively unknown. They're not Victoria Crosses nor are they medals that would have a substantive market value, but they're critically important to the War Museum and the national heritage of the country, because they tell very important stories about Canadians and their contributions and their sacrifices.

I wonder, Mr. Chair, if time permits, if I could just ask my colleague, Jim, to mention one specific medal set that sort of illustrates this, if we may.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Your time is up, but we have a policy at this committee that however long the witnesses need to answer, they can take to answer. We time only the members, so please go ahead, Mr. Whitham.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Take another 25 minutes. By the way, the War Museum does a great job.

[Mark O'Neill]

Thank you, sir.

Go ahead, Jim.

[Jim Whitham]

Just as an example, the museum spends a lot of time when offers of donation come in to get the story of all the individuals who are connected to anything from just regular service medals to higher awards, to Military Crosses or Victoria Crosses. Getting the provenance of the piece is very important, regardless of what the medal is, and all of this is maintained by the museum and entered into the database.

We accept all Canadian medals when offered and take the time to make sure we get all the information we require to maintain the stories of the individuals, because, as you've said, a lot of those medals are not the more highly valued ones, the greater awards. They are from ordinary people.

For example, the museum just recently acquired two common service medal sets from two brothers from Alberta. The two brothers joined up. There were four brothers in total. Two ended up in the same regiment and, on the exact same day, both brothers were killed. So this was a very important and interesting story to maintain and to tell.

We actually acquired those and are doing the research on them, but at the end of the day, those are just two common service medals awarded to two brothers who died. We spend just as much time researching the smaller awards, the lower awards, as we do the Victoria Crosses.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you for that. It's almost like our own Canadian Saving Private Ryan story with the brothers. Did you say that all four enlisted?

[Jim Whitham]

Yes, all four enlisted.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

And two were killed in the same regiment.

[Jim Whitham]

They were, on exactly the same day.