Evidence of meeting #20 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was medal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark O'Neill  Director General, Canadian War Museum
Ronald Griffis  National President, Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping
Jim Whitham  Acting Manager, Collections, Canadian War Museum

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Bonjour à tous.

Welcome to the twentieth meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. We have four witnesses today. For the first hour, we have our colleague Mr. Gary Schellenberger. For the second hour, we have two representatives of the Canadian War Museum, as well as the president of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping.

Before we begin, I would like to commend our clerk and our research staff, because we just finished off this report two days ago. I am aware that they had to stay late and burn the midnight oil to make sure this was done. I want to extend my appreciation to my colleagues.

Of course, Jean-Rodrigue is not here because he's still being a new father at this time and is making sure that baby and wife are in good shape, but Mr. Cox, Georges, and Julie-Anne, our emerging new clerk, I want to thank you very much for your good work. You have the appreciation of the entire committee.

Mr. Stoffer.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Mr. Chairman, if I could just take the liberty, with our analyst's wife having a child, could we agree to send them flowers congratulating them on their little one?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Yes. That's a suggestion. If everybody would like to throw in a couple of dollars, we'll get that done.

11:05 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Not for G8 spending, though--

11:05 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

No, Mr. Oliphant. It would not be. We're talking about flowers for our researcher.

11:05 a.m.

An hon. member

So nice--

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

A nice sunny day—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

If there's no other business, we'll go right to our witnesses.

Now we have MP Gary Schellenberger.

Please begin. I think you know how the committee works. You'll have an opportunity for opening remarks and then, of course, we'll have the usual questions.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Yes, Mr. Chair.

I thank you very much for allowing me to be here. I'm unaccustomed to being on this end of the table, as I usually sit at the other end, but today I welcome this opportunity to speak to you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, I'm here today to speak in support of my private member's bill, Bill C-473, which focuses on the protection of military medals, orders, and decorations awarded to Canadians who have selflessly put themselves in harm's way in the defence of Canada. I hope you will support this bill and pass it quickly through this committee.

As you know, generations of Canadian veterans, through their courage, determination, and sacrifice, have helped to protect the Canadian values of freedom, democracy, and rule of law, both at home and abroad. This meeting today to discuss Bill C-473 allows us to reflect upon the importance of Canada's military heritage and the role our government and federal institutions play in commemorating and maintaining it.

On any given day, approximately 8,000 Canadian Forces personnel are preparing for, engaging in, or returning from overseas missions. They follow in the footsteps of Canadians who for more than 200 years have answered the call and have sacrificed all they knew--all the comforts, love, and safety of home--in order to defend the freedom of others.

The efforts and sacrifices of Canada's armed forces throughout history--and even as we sit in this room today--must not be forgotten. They must be honoured as an integral part of Canada's heritage.

Bill C-473 recognizes their importance and the importance of the honours and awards given to them in recognition of their sacrifices. This government recognizes the need to protect our military heritage.

Certain medals and other honours are already protected through legislation. Twenty-five years ago, the Mulroney government responded to the need to protect Canada's heritage by introducing the Cultural Property Export and Import Act. This act strikes a balance between the need to protect the nation's heritage and the property rights of private owners. That same approach is what I have aimed for with Bill C-473.

The Cultural Property Export and Import Act includes, among other elements, a system of cultural property export control that requires export permits for a range of cultural property, including medals. This existing act is an important tool in helping to keep objects of outstanding significance and national importance in Canada.

Let me explain how this works in relation to historic medals in order to set Bill C-473 in the broader context of heritage protection. Regulations under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act specify categories of objects that require a permit to leave Canada for any reason—temporarily or permanently. Military medals, orders, and decorations are of course included, but, like other protected objects, they must be at least 50 years old. Export permits are refused for objects that are deemed to be of outstanding significance and national importance.

That refusal may be appealed to the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board. On appeal, the board may create a delay period of up to six months to allow Canadian cultural institutions the opportunity to purchase the object in question so that it may remain in Canada. During the delay period, a program of grants is available from the Department of Canadian Heritage to assist institutions in purchasing these national treasures.

Bill C-473 would provide a similar opportunity by requiring owners to offer the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation and other cultural institutions the right of first refusal before transferring certain military medals, orders, and decorations to non-residents. Therefore, we have to achieve the goal of balancing the rights of private property owners with maintaining and commemorating an important part of Canadian history.

Creating stricter regulations is one tool to stop owners who want to sell military medals outside of the country, but I believe it is also important to encourage Canadians to donate their medals to museums, where they can be preserved for future generations, rather than selling them to collectors. Under the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, a system of special tax incentives exists to provide further encouragement for owners to donate outstanding historical medals to Canadian institutions. This will be expanded to include all military medals, awards, insignia, and honours.

When I originally tabled Bill C-473, I indicated that my objective was to keep important military medals, orders, and decorations in Canada. That is also our government's long-held objective.

Bill C-473 would also balance the rights of individual owners of these military honours with the desire to protect them for the public. That is also the long-held public policy of the government, as evidenced in the Cultural Property Export and Import Act.

Historic medals, decorations, or other honours have been well served by the existing act. Recent examples demonstrate this.

Through the export controls, grant system, and tax provisions of the act, the Victoria Cross of John MacGregor was acquired by the Canadian War Museum for the benefit of all Canadians.

It is through this effective legislation that the Government of Canada acted to ensure that Fred Topham's Victoria Cross was not lost to Canada.

The act also enabled the government to take measures to ensure that the medals of Lieutenant-Colonel Cecil Merritt and Sergeant William Merrifield were retained in a public institution in Canada.

It is time for our modern military medals to receive the same protection accorded to our historic medals and that is what Bill C-473 seeks to achieve. Bill C-473 recognizes the important role played by federal museums as custodians of our military heritage.

The Canadian Museum of Civilization and the Canadian War Museum, together with other museums across the country, including the Canadian Forces museums, take on the task of preserving our military heritage. It is important that as parliamentarians we act to ensure the successes of these vital and important cultural remembrance centres.

In my riding of Perth—Wellington, as well as in many of your own respective ridings, local historians and small museums are playing an enormous part in maintaining the proud record of Canadian military achievements. There have been efforts made by people like Dave Thomson of St. George, Ontario, and Philip Fowler and David Gazelle, who, on behalf of a group of Stratford citizens, have purchased several medals won by residents of Perth County and returned these to the Stratford Perth Museum with the help of its director, Linda Carter.

Over the past two years, the following medals have been saved and donated to this museum, where they will be forever protected: Sergeant Lorne Wesley Brothers, World War I British War Medal, a man I knew many years ago; Private George Grimditch, World War I Service Medal and Victory Medal; Lieutenant William Warren Davidson, World War I British War Medal and Victory Medal; Private Douglas Thomas Hamilton, World War I Silver Cross; and Private George Buckingham, World War I Service Medal, another man I knew in my earlier days, a very elderly man. I never realized until I read this about his medals that he was in the First World War. He was in private business in later years. And there was Private Alexander Connolly, whose World War I British War Medal and Victory Medal were also protected.

Canada's military history collections are part of the heritage of all Canadians. In some respects, they matter most to those who have grown up in the peaceful aftermath of war and to those who have adopted Canada as a home free from the tragedies of other lands. The story of our military past is understood and made meaningful to Canadians, many of whom have no direct experience of war or the part played by conflict in our history.

Museums, of course, are much more than collections of objects. With artifacts as material evidence, they illuminate and document our history. Military museums are unique in their commemorative role and they're uniquely placed as repositories of important objects, such as military medals, orders, and decorations that tell the story of the sacrifices of our brave Canadians in uniform.

This government has recognized the importance of preserving our military heritage, both through legislation and through the establishment of museums. Bill C-473 speaks of the importance of our military heritage and fills an important gap by focusing on Canada's modern military honours.

Bill C-473 would ensure that federal museums would be given the opportunity to acquire and protect modern military medals, orders, and decorations, which are no less deserving than those given 50 or 100 years ago to brave Canadians. For the spirit of the country and the courage of its people, I am pleased to be here to discuss Bill C-473. I urge all members to quickly pass this bill through committee.

I will be happy to answer any questions in the remaining time allotted.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger. I can imagine that it means a lot more to you because you know some of those individuals who have actually served and whose medals have been retained and protected for the good of our country.

I'll move first to the Liberal Party.

Go ahead, Mr. Oliphant, for seven minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger, for bringing forward this piece of legislation.

You probably read or heard the speech I made in the House of Commons, so I won't repeat it, but in that, I did thank you for doing this piece of work and for what I think is quite a good balancing act between the rights of the individual and the rights of the community around these medals.

I've said that the medals tell two stories. They tell the story of an individual's particular actions of heroism and activity in defence of our country, but they also tell the story of our country. They are quasi-public material and quasi-private property. They are both, and I think the bill seems, at least to me, to represent a good balancing of private and public property rights. I thank you for wrestling with that.

I want to ask you a couple of questions about your work. You may not know the answer to this question, but do you have any idea of the number of medals we are talking about? Have you been in touch with any of the museums or organizations about the military having a number of medals in circulation, as it were, that may be of interest?

I believe this is only for medals that are less than 50 years old and that any medal over 50 years old is already protected under a heritage act, so these are new medals from the last 50 years that we're talking about. How many are there? How many do the museums actually think they may or may not want? Is there any idea of what is happening in terms of the sale of these medals? Is there a market? Or is that not a concern?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Just speaking to that, I have no idea how many medals are out there. What I would like to see with this bill is for us to just give the same respect to our modern medals that we do to the medals that are 50 and 100 years old.

For the veteran who has these medals, they are priceless to them. They're usually not for sale. It's usually after the fact. It's like I said with George Buckingham, whose name I mentioned. When I knew him, he was a bachelor. His parents had passed on. We painted his house. He used to feed the squirrels. That's all I knew about him. I didn't know that he had medals and I didn't know of his past.

I don't know how many would be wanted by the museums. But my whole thing is my father... I noticed that on the order of business, the orders of the day, you have my name as “Gary Ralph Schellenberger”. Well, my dad is Ralph Schellenberger, and he is a veteran. He has some medals, not great medals; he doesn't have a Silver Cross or anything. But you know, there are a lot of people like my dad. He was a farm boy and was signed up and went off to war. He didn't do anything other than be part of a great army that won the war.

Even I don't know what all his medals mean. I know I will receive those medals and I know what I'm going to do with those medals. I am going to donate them to the local museum so that my father is remembered forever and ever. They will be there;they might just go into a repository someplace. Will they be out for people's view every day? Not necessarily. But usually what museums do is archive those things. They will get the particulars of how and why this person did what he did. This was a young man who went to war because there was a need and he did receive medals.

One of the medals he has is an overseas medal. He didn't receive it until about 35 years ago, because he didn't think he was ever overseas. Well, during the Second World War he was sent to Newfoundland, and at that particular time Newfoundland was not part of Canada, so he received a medal for going overseas. Is that important? I think it is, because during the time he went, either one or two trips before, a ferry sunk going to Newfoundland. He was on one either the day before or the day after, so yes, it was dangerous.

With that, I don't know how many numbers... It's not the veteran that I'm worried about. It's a niece, nephew, or a cousin somewhere down the line who might receive them and not realize what they are.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Thank you.

Go ahead, Bonnie.

June 17th, 2010 / 11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Mr. Schellenberger, I too want to commend you for this initiative.

I noticed in the bill that the offence would be punishable by a summary conviction or five times the value of the medal. How would that be enforced?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

I don't have a clue.

11:20 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Okay.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

I've had some help. Again, I don't draft bills. I had some help from Heritage. I'm not sure whether that same amount is in the previous bill for medals that are 50 years or older.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

I have just one more question.

Sometimes these things show up anonymously on eBay. How could we possibly monitor and control that?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

That's what it's about. If someone were to phone up and had some medals and didn't know what they were, or if they had some medals and did know--in this day and age you can get on a website and do some checking--they could check with Heritage Canada or the War Museum.

About five or six years ago, there was a Second World War veteran who lived in my riding in Stratford in a seniors' home. He had a tremendous collection of aircraft that were built to scale. He had built them. He had about 65 of these, including a Lancaster, and his room was full. He had no one to pass them on to. It took us over a year to find an air museum--I think it was in Manitoba--we could send these models to. I wished then that I had some space to put them up, but they are now there.

Will the odd one slip through? Maybe. But people will be able to phone up and find out what the medals are and if they have historical importance.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Mr. Schellenberger.

We're about two minutes over.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Bonnie Crombie Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Okay. Sorry.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Our policy at this committee has always been to allow the witness to answer as long as they like, but we time the members, and we were about nine minutes on that one.

We'll go to the Bloc Québécois and Monsieur André for seven minutes.