Veterans Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2010

[Mark O'Neill]

Yes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I'm trying to get a kind of magnitude on this. I hadn't really thought about it, but this bill could require a royal recommendation because it could involve the spending of public funds.

Would it be your understanding that this bill would require a royal recommendation?

[Mark O'Neill]

I can't comment directly on that, sir. I would simply reiterate that because we don't know what the impact of the bill might be on the collections, practices, or requirements of the museum, we certainly don't have funds set aside for those purchases at this time.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So that could take a diversion of funds.

[Mark O'Neill]

It could theoretically, yes.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mind you, that does, then, balance with section 27 of the Museums Act, which I think would supersede this act anyway, so you could still decide not to buy any of these medals if you wanted to. We'll have to talk more here about whether we need to make it explicit in the bill about what supersedes what, but I think that was an important caution.

This is why we have committee meetings. I am learning. Contrary to what they think, my mind changes--

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

--on things. Even the Bloc members smile at that.

The bill purports to be “an Act to protect”, and it's understood by some people as an act to protect insignia medals, but it's also being understood as an act to facilitate a market for them. And I'm now wondering whether this is an act principally to create a market or it is an act principally to protect.

I'm getting more confused on that. Because there is a market out there, but this actually could facilitate more of a market. And if you don't have the funds to purchase them, it actually may not protect our medals.

[Mark O'Neill]

I can respond by saying there does not currently appear to be a significant market for most of the medals that would be within the scope of this bill. That is not to be taken as a value judgment on the worth of these medals to the national military heritage, but there does not currently appear to be a market. It's very difficult to predict.

I would come back to my point that the overwhelming majority of medals that the War Museum acquires are in fact by way of donation.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Following on the chair's earlier question, do you know about other jurisdictions in other countries? There must be other war museums and other countries dealing with this kind of issue. In your international contacts with other collections, do you know about property rights and medals?

[Mark O'Neill]

Not to any great degree. We certainly haven't studied it to provide any testimony here today.

When this question was posed earlier at the committee, my colleague Jim and I were discussing it. To our knowledge, United States Congressional Medals of Honor, for example, are not permitted to be sold. We are aware of that, but I really can't provide you with a great deal of testimony on that, sir.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I think we might want to make a note to the researcher that we may need some more work on that as a committee.

I'll pass this on to Bonnie.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. O'Neill, is there a logical home for these medals and artifacts that don't meet your criteria or are they just otherwise sold on the open market? Should we house them in Legion halls or schools? What would you recommend?

[Mark O'Neill]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Crombie.

In fact, the War Museum does work with a wide variety of other institutions across the country in preserving and presenting military heritage. There are a number of military medals and insignia that are not in the national military history museum, and they are quite properly preserved and presented in museums and institutions across the country.

There is a variety of ways in which these medals can be preserved. Certainly, one of them is the Canadian War Museum, and we're happy to see the museum mentioned explicitly as a possible repository.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

As well, Mr. Griffis, do you think there's a need for this legislation, given that you've already mentioned that bureaucrats comb the websites and are obviously already purchasing medals that go up for sale?

[Ronald Griffis]

Yes, I do believe there is a need for it, to the extent that it should require more than one or two things to protect medals of cultural significance. There are always things that can be protected that are going to slip under the radar, or action could be taken to prevent it.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. O'Neill, I wonder if you might estimate what the additional economic and financial impact of this legislation might be on an annual basis.

[Mark O'Neill]

I really can't. We've not made that determination.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So how many medals, for instance, would come up on the open market annually?

[Mark O'Neill]

We believe there are several million medal sets that will probably be available on the market over the next decade or so. Many of these are service medals. There are quite a number of medals. We're unable to determine what market may exist for them or what additional resources a collecting institution might require.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I hope you can assist me in gathering my grandfather's medals. I've never been able to get them. He served in the Polish division of the French army in the Second World War, so maybe I'll come to see you later.

I have a final question. I wonder if you might extend the legislation to capture other objects of heroic or historical significance, objects other than war medals. Maybe they are of artistic value, of sports value, or have other cultural significance.

[Mark O'Neill]

I can comment specifically about military medals and insignia and say that we certainly are interested in collecting those and safeguarding them for Canadians, for future generations. Other forms of decorations I'd be a little bit concerned about commenting on, because it seems to be beyond my purview.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. O'Neill.

Now we'll go on to Monsieur Vincent.

You have seven minutes.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I commend you, Mr. O'Neill, for speaking in French. I smiled earlier, not at what you were saying, but because I saw my colleague, Mr. Stoffer, asking Mr. Schellenberger for a pin. So watch it, Mr. Griffis, because if you have any pins, he will definitely ask you for one.

I think the bill was prepared in good faith. But even if this bill is passed, you will not be required to buy all the medals, since you are independent in any purchases you make. You said earlier that you decide which medals you are going to purchase. Something would need to be added to the bill in order to compel you to purchase certain medals, in particular.

You mentioned the Victoria Cross worth $240,000. Do you have some expertise in such medals? Do you know how many were awarded in Canada and if there are other medals with an equivalent value? How many could there be?

You mentioned three Victoria Cross medals, but how many could there be in the entire country, how many were awarded? If there are 100 of them, their total value is $24 million.

Would it be possible to get an expert opinion so we would know that medal A is worth this much and medal B is worth that much? How many are there in Canada? Could you provide the committee with that information?

[Mark O'Neill]

I will check with my colleague, Mr. Whitham. We know where most of the medals are located throughout the country, including the Victoria Cross medals. We work with the institutions and families in possession of these medals.

Furthermore, we have internal experts, researchers, acquisition committees, people who determine the value of all the museum's artifacts using established criteria that reflects our mandate. They determine, for example, whether the objects we receive will foster a better understanding of our military history, whether the object is quite unique and will enhance people's knowledge of our military history.

We have a committee, criteria and policies in place to determine the value of every object, donation and purchase.