Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Pierre Allard]

I even think that we sent a copy of our comments to the clerk—perhaps not this clerk, but the last one.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

I was under the impression that there were more recommendations than what's in the document.

I would like to get back to the Cultural Property Export and Import Act. You are saying that we should abandon this bill and amend the act instead.

[Brad White]

From speaking with Mr. Schellenberger before we started our proceedings today, I understand where he is coming from, the heritage committee, where I understand he attempted to protect the medals as well. Now at this committee, he's doing the same thing.

I think there needs to be a joint effort.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

That's not quite right.

[Brad White]

No? That's not quite right?

When members are talking about items of significant heritage to Canada, particularly when they're talking about veterans issues, if they want to determine a way forward, I don't think it's a matter for one committee or the other. I think that both probably have to be involved to determine exactly what to do.

If you want to proceed with this legislation, then I think you need to discuss what are medals of significance and how you're going to overcome the issue of individual rights. If you feel there might be a better way, through consultation, to amend the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, then that might be the way to go as well.

[Lise Zarac, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

My last question—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Madame Zarac, your time is up.

Monsieur Vincent.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Messrs. Allard and White. I have been listening carefully to your points of view. I also understand Mr. Schellenberger's take on things.

First, here's an off-the-cuff idea for you. If the government really wants to hold on to certain medals, isn't there some way to index them and identify which medals the government would like to keep in Canada? Second, would the government be prepared to pay the market price if someone wanted to sell one of their medals that was listed as important?

In addition, let's assume we were to remove one of the bill's clauses under which people would be prosecuted for selling their medals, and by doing so we were to allow people to do what they like with the less important medals that are not indexed. Would that be closer to what you are asking for? We have to see what we can do.

I will give you an example. A museum could very well not be interested in buying your medal, Mr. Allard, if it already has one like it. In that case, you would be stuck with yours. You could not sell it, and even your children or your grandchildren, wanting to part with the medal, could not sell it to the museum, which already has one.

The government should settle on a price for important medals, determine the market value of each type of medal—because the government's price shouldn't deviate from the market one. The government should specify that it is prepared to pay that amount to people who wish to part with their medals. As for the other medals, the government should allow people to dispose of them as they see fit, to sell them as they wish.

What do you think about this idea?

[Brad White]

I'll start with the first, if I may.

I'll go back to the example of the Order of Canada. We already have a medal that is supposed to be returned to the government after the individual has passed away. That's already part of the medal. Maybe when the government considers medals, orders, and decorations in the future, it might want to consider that as part of the order or decoration or medal, and put that in there.

Will it mean that the order, decoration, or medal will come back to the government? Probably not.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The medals don't necessarily have to be automatically reclaimed by the government, but the government should at least be able to buy them at the market price. You mentioned the Order of Canada. If people do not give back their medals and those medals end up elsewhere, we have to live with that. However, we could say to those who own certain types of medals and to those who may receive them in the future that, if they want to sell them, the government is prepared to pay the market price.

[Pierre Allard]

It is my understanding that the Cultural Property Export and Import Act contains regulations under which cultural property must be 50 years old or over, and that there is a sort of a 90-day waiting period during which an attempt is made to find people who would be prepared to buy the significant cultural property in question.

I also think that the $3,000 maximum is unrealistic. The 90-day period might be logical, but I think that amending the requirement that the property be at least 50 years old would perhaps be the best way to achieve what you're trying to accomplish through Bill C-473.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Your comments are very clear. I also see that all the other participants wish to maintain the status quo on this issue.

[Pierre Allard]

I think the solution would be to amend the Cultural Property Export and Import Act.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Very well.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to totally understand the question, because I share a lot of Mr. Stoffer's views.

I'll explain it this way. I go to county fairs in my community, and often they'll have vendors with medals for sale. Every time I look at them I get this emotional feeling that somebody's life is being sold. Maybe I've just got to get over that, or that isn't the thing, but through the views you're expressing, are the people you represent okay with it being currency?

[Pierre Allard]

I'm not necessarily convinced that collectors think this is currency. I think collectors also recognize the historical significance of awards. I think it's wrong to attribute to them that they see this solely as currency. I also see that they do something significant, in that, for all the medals I've identified--I've quoted numbers about how many medals are in circulation--they at least keep the medal linked to the recognition that provided that medal, or else it doesn't have any currency, which is something nobody else will do.

So I think it's not a question of whether this is currency, or whether we're just preserving something. And whoever does it, whether it's a museum or a collector, the result is the same. Does a museum see this as currency?

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I don't know. Are the groups you represent okay with them being sold as...? I'll give you another example.

[Pierre Allard]

I can't answer that question. It's not answerable. Are museums happy with the context under which they operate?

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I don't know. I don't run the museums, nor do I have the answer to that.

I'll give you another example. In my community there's a guy named--maybe you know him--Dave Thomson, who repatriates medals to their original families when he finds and bids for them on eBay. In fact, he solicits money from individuals around the community. Many of us have participated in supplying him the money he needs to get a medal that's being bid on eBay. He has literally repatriated hundreds of medals off eBay to their original families, usually the descendants of the veteran who owned the medals. He does the historical research to find out who they belonged to. When he cannot find out who they are attributable to, he will donate them to a military museum--

[A voice]

Or a legion.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

--so they are preserved without getting back into the open market of buy and sell, as they are when he finds them.

I guess, in a sense, that one of the reasons why many of us have given him money to do that and have encouraged him, and when it gets down to the final strokes to give him more money so he can acquire these things, is the fact that we know they are not going to be sold again. They are not going to be out there as an item for trade on the open market.

I suppose my question was more driving at the fact that as these are bought and sold in that environment.... I understand collectors and I understand they have great motive and they want to make sure they preserve these to their original.... I suppose all the attributes that Mr. Stoffer articulated that medals are really all about is the reason why. But in the other situation I'm familiar with, where they are trying to be repatriated and not be bought and sold, do you think this is something we should be dealing with here, or should we let it happen as it is today?

[Brad White]

I'll go back on the issue that it's kind of difficult to know something is lost if you never knew it existed in the first place. What the individual is doing is a very noble cause, repatriating medals, but there is never any guarantee that they will never go back on the market again.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

You're right.

[Brad White]

As the family takes it back again and it goes through the process, maybe one or two generations, the significance of that medal will be gone again and it might end up back on the market. So there's never any guarantee, if that medal goes back into a family setting, how that medal will be treated.

There is possibly a guarantee that if a medal goes into a museum setting, it will end up in a pull-out drawer somewhere and may be pulled out once every ten years.