Evidence of meeting #28 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clinics.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Janice Burke  Director, Mental Health, Department of Veterans Affairs
Raymond Lalonde  Director, National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries, Ste. Anne's Hospital, Department of Veterans Affairs
Tina Pranger  National Mental Health Officer, Department of Veterans Affairs

4:15 p.m.

Director, National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries, Ste. Anne's Hospital, Department of Veterans Affairs

Raymond Lalonde

As I said earlier, most of the clinics are provincial ones that Veterans Affairs funds. We have established protocols with the clinics to ensure that the types of services across the country are similar, even though they're delivered by different health authorities.

On the initial contact, the clinic receives a referral from the district office with details on the veteran's needs. The first thing the clinic does is contact the client to set up an appointment. Initial screening is done over the phone to see if there is any urgency or if any issues should be addressed right away. Once the clinic takes responsibility, they ensure that those who are in danger are referred or taken care of immediately.

So the initial activity in the clinic is the screening interview. It's normally done by a nurse, who gathers all the information she needs to present to the clinical team, because all the clinics we have are specialized clinics. They work in an interdisciplinary team of psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and nurses. They work together and say, “We have a new client who needs to be assessed. We don't know what the diagnosis is, so we need to do it.”

Depending on the initial interview, it may involve the psychiatrist and the psychologist. We invite the family members as part of the assessment plan, because we know that the impact of PTSD is not only on a veteran or the member, it's on the family. So we invite the spouse to accompany the veteran to the assessment so we have a global understanding of the family situation, not only the patient situation.

A standardized test is run. It's the PTSD anxiety scale. Different scales are used to try to understand the condition. A diagnosis is made by the interdisciplinary team—let's say it's PTSD. Then the treatment can start.

For treatment, there are different modalities depending on the condition. We use prolonged exposure therapy, for example. It's a type of treatment where the therapist ensures that the patient relives the trauma. It makes them speak about the trauma and write about it so it comes back. After that session the therapist is able to put things in perspective to make the difference between the situation then and the situation today. Over time, with exposure therapy, the feelings associated with their trauma will diminish.

There are different modalities of treatment that can be used. We use Telehealth as part of our treatment modalities. After an initial assessment at the clinic, treatment can be provided in the home community through Telehealth services. It's a new type of treatment modality we've started using. More than 85 of our clients have already received treatment through Telehealth facilities in their own communities.

They go to the local hospital or any centre that has Telehealth equipment. They might receive therapy from a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist will renew the medication or see how the medication is going. There is group therapy. There is couples therapy and group therapy, like anger management. At the conference two weeks ago we shared with the participants a new anger management protocol for group therapy that was shared with all the participants of the international traumatic stress society conference.

So there's either one-to-one, couples, or group therapy. In some cases we involve the children in group activities. And there's Telehealth. We use drugs and therapy. Those are the basic things you can expect from the clinic.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

Mr. André.

November 16th, 2010 / 4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Good afternoon. I'll quickly ask two questions. I wondered about the death of Private Couture, who took part in your therapy. I saw the film at the time, and it somewhat surprised me to learn that the mother was not aware of what had happened on the battlefield. I understand that a confidentiality rule was observed by the armed forces professional.

The reason for my question is that, in everyday life, in our usual social systems, in our CLSCs, in our suicide intervention structures, when a professional, psychologist or psychiatrist believes that the life of one of his patients is in danger, that that person is mentally unbalanced or wants to commit suicide, he may circumvent the confidentiality rule, professional-patient privilege, and decide to confine or hospitalize that person. That's an intervention process that can be carried out.

I had a question about that situation. I don't know whether you are aware of this type of case. What is the battlefield protocol in the case of a suicidal individual who wants to take action?

The soldier wanted to commit suicide on the battlefield; he had lost a leg. He was subsequently found hospitalized in one of your institutions. Are you aware of that? Are you able to answer that question? Is there a protocol?

4:25 p.m.

Director, National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries, Ste. Anne's Hospital, Department of Veterans Affairs

Raymond Lalonde

The first thing I must say is that I can't talk about the case of the client in question, and I am not aware of the details of that case, as the—

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

I'm talking about a response protocol.

4:25 p.m.

Director, National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries, Ste. Anne's Hospital, Department of Veterans Affairs

Raymond Lalonde

All right. With regard to what happens on battlefields, you should ask the Canadian Forces officials when they appear before this committee what the protocols are because we don't know that.

Now I would like to clarify a second point in connection with the question Mr. Vincent asked earlier. The care given to Canadian Forces members wounded in Afghanistan is the responsibility of the Canadian Forces. Those people are not necessarily seen at our clinics. Our clinics are mainly for veterans. In places where the forces have no clinics, we will offer Canadian Forces members access to certain clinics, such as in Winnipeg, where we have a number of Canadian Forces members. However, care is normally provided at National Defence clinics.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

What surprises me as well, in the wake of Mr. Vincent's questions, is that you're saying you don't have any statistics on clients who are hospitalized or treated at your post-traumatic care clinics. Those clinics—we visited them—are excellent, and I was amazed and interested. However, there's no follow-up.

So I'm also wondering about that point because there doesn't seem to be any follow-up. We don't know the suicide rate among individuals dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder who are hospitalized at your facilities. They are hospitalized, but one would say no one knows what happens to them after that.

And yet, it seems to me that the entire question of subsequent support for families is very important. Someone who suffers post-traumatic stress changes character, behaviour, and there is a whole adjustment that has to be made with the family. After that person has been treated at your facilities, I suppose there must be psychosocial follow-up, follow-up with the family, to promote that individual's return to society.

How long does that follow-up last? Why is there not more follow-up? I don't understand. You can't tell us that. In fact, it's not you I'm speaking to. It's our system which is unable to tell us how many people have committed suicide. Follow-up has been done with the families. I don't understand. I'm trying to follow, but I don't understand.

4:25 p.m.

Director, Mental Health, Department of Veterans Affairs

Janice Burke

I can respond perhaps to one part of your question, certainly not to the clinic protocols.

Just so that you're aware, when a veteran comes into our programs there is a full assessment that's completed on the veteran. There's also the screening for suicide as well that occurs. To the extent possible, we encourage the participation of family in the case planning, because they are absolutely key to supporting the veteran in their recovery, no question.

So we do work with the veteran. We work with their families. We work with their providers in the community--their psychologists--to the extent that we have permission from the veteran in terms of discussing and sharing that information. And if there are indicators and if the risk factors exist--and I went through what those risk factors were earlier--those are exactly the signs that our staff, working with the veteran and their family, need to be aware of and need to ensure that the veteran's primary physician is aware of as well.

So we do have protocols in our department in terms of how to deal with clients who could potentially die by suicide, and also for clients who call into our national call centre. Because that occurs as well, when a client will call in crisis, indicating that they wish to take their lives. So we have protocols there. We've given the training. That then works with the case manager in the district office.

Tina, you could perhaps expand upon the protocols.

4:30 p.m.

National Mental Health Officer, Department of Veterans Affairs

Dr. Tina Pranger

I also understood you to say, around support for the families, you were interested in that?

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Guy André Bloc Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

I'm interested in the statistics on follow-up, the number of suicides, the number of homeless individuals, the number of individuals who are separated—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

We have to wrap this up.

4:30 p.m.

National Mental Health Officer, Department of Veterans Affairs

Dr. Tina Pranger

Yes, we do take into consideration the impact that someone who has suicidal ideas.... They probably have a whole lot of issues going on, and the case managers do ensure that the family of someone who is thinking of suicide is getting support. The case manager helps look after the needs of the family of someone who has died by suicide. So we very much take into consideration the need to support the families in all this as well.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you.

We did go quite a bit overboard on that one.

Mr. Lobb.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is very specific. It's to do with therapy once somebody's within the system.

I'm wondering, has there been any work or any research done on equine-assisted therapy? What work has Veterans--

4:30 p.m.

Director, National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries, Ste. Anne's Hospital, Department of Veterans Affairs

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Equine-assisted, horse-assisted therapy.

4:30 p.m.

Director, Mental Health, Department of Veterans Affairs

Janice Burke

Certainly we are looking at that body of research that exists around animal-assisted therapy.

The research to date--and Raymond could certainly speak to it more than I--the body of research just doesn't exist to necessarily definitively support it as improving treatment outcomes clinically for somebody with post-traumatic stress disorder. However, we're continuing to look at that body of research, even if it's not in the context of assisting the veteran in their psycho-social rehabilitation and their integration into communities and things like that. So we're continuing to look at that.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Great. Specifically with that body of research, is that body of research in the research conducted by Veterans Affairs in Canada?

4:30 p.m.

Director, Mental Health, Department of Veterans Affairs

Janice Burke

No, it's literature research.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Is this research that's been done across the globe? Because it's used extensively in the United States, for sure. They do have quite a few results that are out there in the public domain. So you could maybe just tell the committee a bit more about that then.

4:30 p.m.

Director, National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries, Ste. Anne's Hospital, Department of Veterans Affairs

Raymond Lalonde

Well, the research on equine therapy, using horses, has not been done by Veterans Affairs Canada. It has not been done in Canada for the ones we've looked at. It's the same thing with PTSD dogs. It's the same thing.

There has been some research done, but the number of cases used are very few, and also the conclusion is not sufficient to support. It's not evidence-supported to be effective.

So prior to adopting some of these therapies, Veterans Affairs has to ensure that it is effective. Even though there are some, it's not scientifically evidence-supported.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Just so I'm clear, this is the work, you're saying, in Canada.

4:30 p.m.

Director, Mental Health, Department of Veterans Affairs

Janice Burke

This is the literature research that was done. I think you looked at the Americans.

4:30 p.m.

Director, National Centre for Operational Stress Injuries, Ste. Anne's Hospital, Department of Veterans Affairs

Raymond Lalonde

Oh, yes, we looked at what existed across the world.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

You're claiming that's insufficient?