Evidence of meeting #32 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
When reservists return from a theatre of operations, they are subject to the same post-deployment procedures, but once they reintegrate their unit, there are a lot of shortcomings in that regard.
Conservative
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
One of the issues of the charter, when it was first drafted, was to connect the Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs, so that as soon as injured Canadian Forces personnel were released there would be that connection to Veterans Affairs and the services and support they might need.
Have you seen an improvement in the interaction between DND and Veterans Affairs?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I'm sorry, I don't think I could say if I've seen an improvement. All I'm saying is we still have people coming to us. Some retirees go to Veterans Affairs, and they're referred to us because we're looking at the issues that concern them. Some people come to us. People who retire from the Canadian Forces are my constituents, but they're all veterans so they will go to Veterans Affairs, depending on the issue.
We still have a similar problem with the medical release from the forces--the delay in the medical release and the benefits they will get as veterans, and so on.
So I cannot really put an evaluation on it, but we still have some of those concerns coming to our office.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Are the programs and supports that are given to veterans and their families presented to the veterans as they leave? Whether they take advantage of them right away or not, are they aware of some of the support that Veterans Affairs wants to give them if they need it?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I don't know how well they are informed when they leave the forces; I would need to look at what kind of “second career” briefing they're given when they leave.
Having retired from the Canadian Forces myself—that was a long time ago—you know a bit, but I would say I didn't get that much information.
I think people think about Veterans Affairs—and this is just a statement on my part—when they have problems, and besides that they don't really think about it. So I don't think it is well understood or well explained.
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay.
Has there been any research done into how our allies proceed? Is there a good model that other countries are using to help with that transition and follow some of the things we are doing with the charter?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I must admit that the charter is not my responsibility, so I'm not involved in that at all. With respect to PTSD and OSI concerns, we are doing very well compared to many countries.
I attended the annual international conference of ombudsmen of armed forces, and so far we have had 20 countries, from Europe mainly, looking into how we do our business—treating our people and so on. In that sense I would say we're a kind of leader in what we try to put forward.
With regard to veterans, the charter and everything, I'm sorry, I don't really deal with that particular issue.
November 30th, 2010 / 4:40 p.m.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
As chair, I have one or two questions.
You suggested the database. How do you work the database with the Privacy Act? Can you force someone to put their name into the database? I know in the private sector you can't really force anyone to do anything; you could put someone into a particular program and they could sign themselves right back out again.
How would you set up a database that would be meaningful, that would work within the Privacy Act and still be able to help those people that maybe say they don't need help?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Mr. Chair, I will say a few words, but if you don't mind I would like my general counsel to talk on this issue because she's more aware of it.
You're quite right, people come to our office in confidence, and whenever we want to use their name or divulge their information they have to give us their written consent. When we say sometimes that people are sick and they won't come forward, we cannot deal with the family on behalf of the third person. They have to come. So there's a lot of privacy.
You're right, if people don't want to come forward, you cannot force them and say, “Are you going to tell us what your family needs?”, and so on and so forth.
Mary is my privacy and access coordinator, so maybe she can add to it, if you don't mind, Mr. Chair.
Mary McFadyen General Counsel, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
What we had recommended in the first report in 2002 and reiterated in 2008 is that they need to have statistics to know how many people are suffering from mental health issues so they know where to put the money, the training, the health caregivers.
My understanding of what the CF is doing is that they are in the process of putting electronic medical records on computer so the records will be available. It's taking longer than they thought. They had told us it would be 2009. The last we heard was that it will be March 2012. I believe one of the deputies said that, so that's information we have just been made aware of.
You are allowed to collect private information, but you have to use it for a consistent purpose. If the CF needs to know how many people are suffering at a certain base with a physical or mental injury so they know if they should hire more care workers, I would suggest that would be a consistent use of that information. Names wouldn't be attached to it; it would be a number, such as x amount of people are suffering from that. It would be valuable information to have.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Thank you. I appreciate your answers and your input to this great meeting that we've had here today.
With that, we'll take a five-minute recess, please.
Conservative
Conservative
Greg Kerr Conservative West Nova, NS
Madam Clerk, Brian was supposed to be back and go first. If he's not back, then Phil's ready to go first. We're not sure where Brian is.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Okay.
We welcome our next witness, Pascal Lacoste.
This meeting will be adjourned at 5:45 p.m. At 5:30 p.m. you'll see lights start to blink. Maybe we don't have bells in here, but the lights will blink to tell us that there's a vote. It's not a fire or anything like that. We'll put up with the blinking for the last 15 minutes of this meeting.
With that, sir, if you'd like to make your presentation, please go ahead.
Pascal Lacoste As an Individual
Thank you so much for allowing me to appear before you. I greatly appreciate this opportunity and can confirm that, by simply having undertaken this study, your committee is bringing a lot of hope to veterans who are suffering in silence at home.
I was fortunate to be able to serve my country for 14 years. Had I not been injured during a mission, I would still be serving our great country. The last mission I had the honour of serving in was in East Timor; I was there as an infantry soldier in an airborne division. I was injured in the field. When I arrived at the Quebec City airport, nobody was there waiting for me. And yet, I was repatriated from Australia for medical reasons. Let me tell you that I quickly understood what it feels like going from a hero to a zero when I arrived at the Quebec City airport and saw no one there to greet me.
That led to a lot of distress, both physical and psychological. We know that soldiers think of themselves as the strongest of the strong, those who are admired, feared and respected. Once we become a problem for medical reasons, we do not feel like speaking out because we will have to face both the judgment of our peers and of the chain of command, which will consider us as soldiers who no longer want to work. Unfortunately, I can confirm that is the reaction we face.
Despite my many problems, both physical and psychological, I went to the armed forces for help. They told me that if I asked for too much, they would force me to leave, because the army did not need problem cases in its ranks. So you either put up or leave. That does not make you want to ask for help; therefore, you suck it in and try to keep on marching to the beat.
Later on, when you come before the Department of Veterans Affairs, you are asked to prove that your condition is service-related, because there is nothing written down in your file. No, there is nothing in the file, because no one wants to say that they are sick. The moment you are declared sick, you are no longer a hero, but rather a zero.
I even went to the Department of Veterans Affairs to say that I needed psychological help, that I was afraid to hurt myself. A bureaucrat looked me in the eyes and told me—excuse the term—that I was a welfare bum in uniform and that I only wanted a bigger pay cheque. He told me to leave him alone.
Imagine that you are a highly capable soldier and that, within nine days' time, you fall physically and mentally ill. You no longer understand who you are and you need to muster all your courage to admit that you have medical issues. Admitting you have post-traumatic stress disorder is not an easy thing to do. I admit that I have a psychological illness. It is extremely hard to admit that to yourself. Not only do I admit that, but I have gone to look for help; but the army has told me that my stress is related to my childhood.
When I then go to the Department of National Defence, the bureaucrats there treat me like someone who wants a bigger welfare cheque and imply that my uniform is but a disguise. That is enough to keep you from returning to ask for help. You just feel like staying home and not asking for anything because you are made to feel like a costly nuisance.
People wonder why soldiers do not ask for help. It is because they are frowned upon; they are only seen as an expense. When I signed up, I did not think how much it would cost me; I gave everything that I could. I was pleased to do so. If I had to do it all over again, I would because I love my country. When I was finally diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, I had the honour of receiving care. Things were quite complicated. It took over three years to recognize that I had post-traumatic stress disorder. My spouse was the one who supported me during that time. When you hear people say that family is important, that is so true.
When you enter the armed forces, as long as you are operational, you are commended for being good and strong and told to keep it up, and that your superiors have confidence in you and give you new challenges. What I love about the army is that they give you as much as you can ask for, and they will keep on asking for more as long as you can give it to them. That is highly motivating. But the day you become ill, you are told not to bother them, and they no longer want to hear from you. Therefore, the love you once felt in your work now comes from your social network.
But you have to be careful, because there are limits to what your social network and family can give. My spouse was diagnosed with burn-out, because she was the only one who took care of me, while the armed forces and the Department of Veterans Affairs told me that I did not have a problem and that my stress was childhood-related. During my childhood, I never used a C7 or sniper gun.
Finally, I was hospitalized at Ste. Anne's Hospital, after my spouse had been diagnosed as suffering from burn-out because she had taken care of me. She was a sound-minded woman, an ambulance attendant by profession. So she already had medical knowledge.
I was hospitalized in the only hospital for Canada's veterans, where there were only four beds for people in my generation. They only accept what they refer to as nice cases for these four beds. If you have any addictions to drugs, alcohol or medication, they do not want you. If they feel that you are aggressive, they do not want to hospitalize you in Ste. Anne de Bellevue. So the only places where you can go are the civilian hospitals. However, the staff working in civilian hospitals are afraid of us when we arrive because we have been labelled as individuals suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome.
I told them that I was terrified, that I didn't feel like hurting anyone, that I was a man who was essentially gentle, but that I was afraid. I asked them to help me. They asked me what my problem was. I answered that I was suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. They confined me to my room, where I was kept in a bed and injected with tranquilizers. And yet, I had done absolutely nothing, I had not been violent in any way whatsoever. I had voluntarily asked for assistance. When you ask for help, you are confined to your room, so that does not make you want to ask for assistance again. All you feel like doing is to remain silent, to shut up.
When I was hospitalized in the veterans' hospital for physical problems, I was told that I required too much care, that I could not be given any help washing myself, etc. I replied that the hospital looked after Second World War veterans. I have the greatest respect for them, but why were they entitled to such care, but not me? I was told that these veterans were from another generation, that they had these entitlements and that young veterans had others, but not the same. I suppose that the bullets that whistled by our ears did not hurt as much as those that whistled by theirs. I have a great deal of respect for them, but I do believe that one serves one's country in accordance with one's generation, in accordance with the place where our country sends us. Why should we be treated any differently from them when we need care? Why should we beg for this care?
Despite all of this, I transferred my passion to my spouse, who joined the Canadian Forces as a reservist. She served in Afghanistan. She came back in November 2009. I supported her during 10 months. Throughout this time, when we called the Canadian Forces to inform them that Sabrina was not feeling well, that she was experiencing anxiety attacks, they told me that I knew what was happening, that I should support her as she went through these difficulties, that I was strong and that I should continue. After supporting her for six months, despite my physical and mental state of health, my spouse and I were both suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. Supporting a spouse is already very demanding. In my situation, I was unable to do this, but I did manage because of my love for her.
Six months later, Sabrina tried to commit suicide. I sacrificed my physical and mental health for my country, and I almost sacrificed my wife for my country. That is a heavy price to pay. When I called the Canadian Forces to request assistance and to say that I was the first responder and that I was trying to resuscitate my spouse, I was told to go to the civilian hospital and that they could not do anything for me. So I went there.
Once at the hospital, I called the commanding officer of her regiment, because she was a reservist. Earlier, the ombudsman said that this was part of the commanding officer's job. She did go to the hospital, but the only thing she told me was that she was restricted to making suggestions. It was up to the Department of Veterans Affairs to decide who should be hospitalized. My spouse was unstable and she was not entitled to be hospitalized in the only veterans' hospital in Canada. She had to be put into a civilian hospital. In the civilian hospital, we were told that she was suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome and that they did not know what to do for her and that she should be hospitalized in a veterans' hospital. Where were we to go? Nobody wants to look after us. I brought my spouse back home and I took care of her as best I could until she was granted the great privilege of being admitted to Ste. Anne's Hospital, the only hospital for veterans in Canada. It is too late, I am no longer able to look after her. I had to leave her. We told each other that, although we loved each other a great deal, neither of us were in any state of health to be able to look after each other.
Sabrina came back from Afghanistan in November of last year. Today, the Department of Veterans Affairs is still studying how to help us. I'm sorry, it is too late.
Sabrina has gone back to her family, in the Beauce, and I am alone at home.
I am not the type of person who complains for fun. I can attest that I have had a great deal of time to think about real solutions.
I have been fighting with the Department of Veterans Affairs in order to receive treatment for 11 years—this member of Parliament helped me tremendously with my file and I would like to thank him—and this is the first time that I have been asked, as a veteran, what I think would be good for me. I really appreciate this opportunity as I have been wanting to do this for 11 years.
Why does the department simply not ask us this question? It is very simple: we would like to be treated like human beings.
Some people say that going to war is the greatest act of love one can show to a person as you are saying that I am prepared to die for you. When you come back to your country and you ask for help, after having been prepared to make the greatest sacrifice possible, you are told that there is no money for the "welfare recipients" in uniform who are after a bigger cheque.
I even asked government officials whether or not I could sign a form saying that I was not entitled to a pension, but that I was entitled to care. If there is a money problem, what do I need to do in order to restore my dignity? I am still waiting for the answer.
I have been submitting requests to the Department of Veterans Affairs for more than 11 years and it is still studying how it can help us.
Given these circumstances, do you believe that soldiers feel like saying that they too are ill? No. The person who says this will be dragged into the mud. The law of silence prevails. You must never say that you are sick, because you will lose your job. No one will want to hire you if you are suffering from post-traumatic stress. You must never make this mistake. And this is the message that we pass amongst ourselves.
Do you want to know the truth? You must give us an opportunity to speak. If a child speaks and is punished every time he opens his mouth, he will no longer speak.
That is all. Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
Thank you for that testimony.
For our first questions, Ms. Sgro, please.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Mr. Lacoste, your story breaks my heart. I am embarrassed as a parliamentarian to hear your story and to know that was the way you were treated, both you and Sabrina.
I guess I'd better say that I'm full of gratitude that the committee has taken up this study, because you're telling us stories that we have never heard before to the extent that we are now hearing. You shouldn't have had to do this, never mind your dear wife and what she's gone through.
To go forward to today, what kind of care and what kind of support are you getting today? This is the end of November. What kind of support are you getting today, Mr. Lacoste?
As an Individual
My physical problems are a result of uranium poisoning. The department has taken a very clear position: legally speaking, no Canadian soldier has suffered from uranium poisoning. So the only care that I have received, for my physical problems, consists of relief, the type you would give to someone who is left to die: the only thing I have been given is morphine.
With respect to psychological care, I see a psychologist every two weeks. The only thing I have been taught is how to be more accepting of my situation.
When I was hospitalized in the veterans' hospital, I would have liked to have received, like everyone, courses on sleep management, anger management and all of that, except that, when I was there, I had a big problem.
I am physically ill as well, and there, young veterans are not entitled to be physically sick, because they will not take responsibility for you. They will tell you to go and get treatment from a civilian hospital.
So I am not receiving any care, I have been shunted aside.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
In what year did you go abroad for service? You said it was 14 years ago. Was it 14 years ago that you went abroad in theatre?
As an Individual
I spent 14 years in the Canadian armed forces. I left the Canadian armed forces in 2005, and I went to Bosnia in 1995 and 1996. I went to East Timor from 1999 to 2000.
Liberal