Evidence of meeting #32 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.
A recording is available from Parliament.
November 30th, 2010 / 5:05 p.m.
Liberal
As an Individual
Absolutely. I was training with the biathlon team for the 2002 Olympic Games. I ran 10 km in 29 minutes and 38 seconds. I was the third fastest runner in Canada and I belonged to an elite unit of the Canadian army. I was an exceptional soldier who participated in competitions all over Canada.
Liberal
As an Individual
She was 28 years old. She remained in the army for two years. About a week ago, she was released from Ste. Anne's Hospital. Exactly a year ago today, she returned from Afghanistan.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
We are constantly told about all of the services that are available for all of our vets coming home, and yet you talk about the kind of intimidation that you were put through as a young man, and your wife. It's totally unacceptable that in a country like Canada you would have had to experience that kind of intimidation and abuse, mentally and physically.
Are you only getting today, every two weeks, to meet with a psychologist? Is that still all what you're getting?
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
We just hear so many stories here, and so many deputations from the department, who tell us about all the wonderful services that are available....
Go ahead and ask your questions, Kirsty.
Liberal
Kirsty Duncan Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Monsieur Lacoste, thank you for being here. Thank you for having the courage. Thank you for your service to our country. Thank you for your courage today.
I'm going to talk about the stigma, as you mentioned, while you were in the forces. When I talk to veterans, they say they can't wait to get back to Canada. They will enjoy the little things. There's this honeymoon phase when you get home, and then alcohol and drugs, sometimes, to dull the pain. Then you want to go back, because you don't fit in here.
They feel that if you come forward and ask for help, it can be seen as weakness by chain of command. It can be a career stopper. You're taught to bottle anger. It's weakness to show emotions. Then, when you ask for help, as you have, with post-traumatic stress disorder, it's hard to ask for help. It's hard to talk. Yet when you have the courage to ask for help, you're not given the help, and there's such urgency around getting the help.
Can you tell us three things that you would have expected that would have helped you and then helped your family?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
I'm sorry, but we'll have to get to that on the next round. We are past seven minutes.
Monsieur Vincent.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Lacoste, for being here today. Earlier, the ombudsman said that in 2009, “the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence estimated that, of the 27,000 Canadian Forces members who had served in Afghanistan between 2002 and 2008, approximately 1,120 could exhibit symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder”.
My question is very simple. If 1,200 soldiers were diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, and if there are only four beds in Ste. Anne's Hospital, does this present a problem?
As an Individual
We have an enormous problem, because the four beds in Ste. Anne's Hospital are only for what the officials call “nice cases”, which means that these cases have no problems with aggressiveness, drug dependency or alcohol. Civilian hospitals do not want to have anything to do with us.
Earlier, the lady said that by resorting to alcohol and such things, soldiers try to medicate themselves to relieve the pain, to extinguish that little voice within them that is crying out. It is true that many people will try to find solutions by themselves.
This is because of the way the system is built. First, you must not talk. Secondly, if you need help, your file will be reviewed for an indeterminate period of time. During that period of time, the family has to put up with you.
One thing that people must know is that we are contagious. This means that when someone is living with you and suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, and if he is always awake, he suffers from insomnia and from many painful emotions, the people around him suffer enormously from a feeling of helplessness. They would so much want to help us, but they cannot do it, they have neither the tools nor the knowledge to help us.
The longer we wait before taking care of the soldiers, the more people around them get contaminated, and the more the problem spreads. As time goes on, veterans are getting less social support, because people are no longer able to put up with us. I had to tell my spouse that she had to leave, that I no longer had the energy to take care of her, that we were actually destroying each other. And so much for the family.
The Department of Veterans Affairs should open new beds and, especially, it should open crisis centres. When a soldier has flashbacks of combat as soon as he gets home, it means that he is really not well. There are flashbacks of combat, the smell comes back. He becomes dangerous for himself and for others. He has nowhere to go.
I am one of the veterans working with the OSISS. I was trained as a volunteer peer helper. All that we can do for that person is to try to contain the problem and to bring him back to the here and now. All we have are improvised treatments that we administer to each other.
Another proof that there are gaps and that there is not enough care for us, is that we, as veterans, have to found groups like Veterans Canada to help each other. There are no adequate tools for us.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
When you see that there is something wrong, when you realize that you are doing things that you would not normally do at home, what happens in such cases?
When you go to see your superior at the base and you tell him that you haven't been home for two days, that you are sick, that you do not feel well, do they take you in hand?
As an Individual
No. The first thing they tell us is that we should stop complaining because the door is right there, and that they will put an end to our contract. They threaten us, they tell us that if we can no longer wear the uniform, then we must turn it in.
And then, in my case, although I went to see a social worker on my own, they closed the door on me. I went to see the chaplain to tell him that there was something wrong with me. After pressure from the chaplain, I ended up going to see an army psychologist. He studied my case and he told me ultimately that my stress was due to my childhood and not to military service. Once, I went there because of a problem with my back. My regiment's doctor told me that he had the authorization to treat 10 cases for back problems, and, since I was the 11th, he asked me to come back the following month.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Tell me about your problem with uranium. What is happening? Tell us about the uranium issue?
As an Individual
When I applied for a pension for heavy metal intoxication, including depleted uranium, I was told—
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
How did you get diagnosed with this? Why was that diagnosis not accepted?
As an Individual
It is very simple. When I came back from the mission in East Timor, I lost 35 pounds of muscle mass in 9 days. I went to see army doctors who told me that there was nothing wrong with me, and to stop bothering them, because there was nothing wrong with me.
I am fortunate enough to have a friend whose father is a doctor. He told me that on the contrary, there was something wrong with me and that he was going to give me a check-up.
I received analyses from civilian specialists—because the army found strictly nothing at all. I passed tests proving that I am 61 times more radioactive than the acceptable limit. When I came back with medical proof to the military authorities, I was told two things. The first was that I had no right to get medical care from civilian doctors. Secondly, they told me, and they were laughing, to forget that because, legally, no Canadian soldier has ever been intoxicated with uranium.
As an Individual
It began in the Bosnia mission in 1995-1996. There was also some during the first Gulf War. Currently, there is uranium in Afghanistan.
The bullets of the heavy machine guns on tanks are made of depleted uranium. Depleted uranium is a metal with a density that is much greater than the density of steel, and so it is better for piercing through the enemy vehicle's armour. Given that depleted uranium is waste from nuclear power plants, it is not very expensive.
There is one problem. When the shell hits the enemy vehicle, it fragments into microdust. This radioactive microdust, when it is breathed in, goes through our lungs, then through our blood system, and ends up taking residence in the bone marrow. This creates a degenerative illness that is enormously similar to multiple sclerosis.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
What measures would you recommend to help people who are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder or from a degenerative illness?
As an Individual
It's very simple. There's a huge communication problem between the Department of Veterans Affairs, the veterans and the active military. The military use the military jargon and the veterans affairs department administrators use administrative jargon. We'd need an intermediary because a soldier and an administrator don't speak the same language. They can't understand each other. What's needed is simply for a social worker to participate in the process.
The soldier would go talk to the social worker who, with his or her medical knowledge, would be in a position to adequately analyze the needs of this veteran. The social worker would then be responsible for discussing this with the administrators at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Veterans who are suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome and who have trouble even putting up with themselves are asked to explain their needs. For my part, I don't know what those needs are, but I know I'm in distress. I don't have the skills necessary to say what my needs are. However, I can tell you about my problems. From that point, it's very simple. The soldier should only have to talk to the social worker. That social worker would then conduct a professional analysis and refer that person to the appropriate care and services.
Moreover, if the veteran spoke to a social worker rather than an administrator, the social worker could ensure follow-up of the veteran's file. Right now, the soldier always has to beg and justify every request. As I said earlier, veterans are always seen as people who want a bigger cheque. We want care. We're simply asking to be treated like human beings. I think that if we proceeded like—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger
We have to go on to the next question. We've gone a little over time.
Mr. Stoffer, for five minutes.
NDP
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
To Pascal, thank you very much, sir, for coming today--and for bringing your good friend Daniel. If he's your buddy, you can't be all bad, I'll tell you. He's one of the best around.
I have a couple of questions for you. You talked about the psychological and physical concerns that you're going through. The people who are supposed to help you talked, in my view, very demeaningly of you. They were not very respectful of what you had done to serve our country.
Not now, but in the future, can you give us some of the names of those people who you were talking about and the things they said to you? I would love to have those names.
We hear from Mr. Natynczyk, the CDS, and Minister MacKay that the “Be the Difference” campaign was very successful. It is obvious that there are some people in the military who didn't get the message. This has to stop, and the only way it's going to stop is if we can identify who these people are and have a little chat with them to make sure that the next veteran does not get treated this way.
Even the ombudsman said that there are consequences for individuals who fall through the cracks. It's often devastating and long-lasting.
It is obvious, by your testimony, that you and your wife have fallen through the cracks. And it's obvious that the difficulties you're having are very devastating to you and your family. I'm very, very sorry for what you and your wife are going through.
I was wondering, sir, if it would be possible for you to advise us of what you're getting financially from the department in terms of your pensions and your pay at this time.