Evidence of meeting #32 for Veterans Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was problem.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Officials from National Defence were never questioned about this delay?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
We asked the same thing in 2008 because this was our big priority, and we pointed out that there had been no improvements in that respect.
There may be some information on this topic in the report that my colleague drafted in 2008, but we have not done any follow-up since then. According to our observations, we know that this is very difficult. We have been told that it is difficult to establish a database on psychological illnesses. It is possible to do this for physical illnesses, but it is difficult to do so for psychological illnesses. I did not explore the subject further because we are going to do some follow-up.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
So it is more difficult to set up a database for psychological illnesses than it is for physical problems. Could you explain that to me?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
In the case of physical illnesses, the problem is obvious if the person has a broken arm or leg. However, in the case of psychological illnesses, it is not obvious. I think that we need to first of all determine who is at risk, who participated in combat operations.
I have no further information. That is why we are going to do some follow-up. This was our major priority in 2002, however, eight years down the road, this has yet to be implemented. So we are going to follow up on the matter again, and this time, it is important because many things will flow from this and we will use this to determine priorities—
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Will this database enable you to include reservists and those who have left the army?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
We produced a separate report for reservists. I do not recall the title in French but, in English, it was “Reserved Care: An Investigation into the Treatment of Injured Reservists”. We published an initial report at about the same time, I believe, and we will be following up on it.
These are different situations because not all aspects are necessarily common to all of them. We are going to follow up on the report on injured reservists.
Conservative
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Thank you for being here today to assist us in trying to put programs and services in place for the veterans community so we can assist our veterans.
You're obviously very closely connected to your work, as you've mentioned. One part of your opening comments dealt with the stigma, and we've heard from other witnesses that this is one of the larger issues attached to this. You also mentioned in your opening comments that an initiative called the mental health awareness campaign was taken in the summer of 2009. Can you outline the components of that program?
I'd also ask you for your thoughts and views on what we might do in addition to that, and perhaps have you do a bit of forward thinking, in the sense that we're here to work for the veterans to make sure they get the services they need. Of course, our military personnel are tomorrow's veterans. So what are the proactive things we might consider as a committee in moving forward to help those veterans?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
The mental health awareness campaign was launched by the CDS in June 2009. It was done by DND and the CF to sensitize people at three different levels. The act of coming forward sensitizes the member, the peers in the unit, and the leadership. This stigma is not acceptable anymore. People should not be scared to move forward because they might be seen as being weak by their peers.
Even though there was this awareness campaign, I can see that the stigma is still there. The leadership must address this. It's very much a leadership issue. I have talked with commanders about it. Recently a commander told me, “We're happy here, because there's no stigma anymore”. And I said, “Well, I just had a town hall with tons of your troops, and there is stigma here”. I think the leadership has to realize that it is there. You can't do a week's campaign--remember the “Be the Difference” awareness campaign--and stop there.
I see a lot of things. There are a lot of things out there, but a lot of loops are open. How many are we closing afterwards? This thing is still not there, so leadership has to take this very seriously and continuously. This is like anything else. You have to continuously let people know that it's okay—they can come forward, and they have the service and the care to help them out. We have to find ways of helping them in the future in their employment and so on.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
You also mentioned the creation of a joint personnel support unit. What does that really mean? I'm interested in its rollout, effectiveness, and go-forward strategy. Do you see the potential to assist operational stress disorders with such an initiative?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
I think so. I've seen some of those. I visited two JPSUs, and it's a good thing. It was created following our reports on how to make sure you integrate all care and services. So it's good. Right now it addresses concerns from the military point of view. Members are taken off their unit and they're posted or transferred into this kind of unit. We used to call it the “special medical holding list”. When people were not healthy enough to continue their work, they were put in a separate unit to get the care and everything. This is good. It's moving forward, and it's moving okay.
This unit was created to help the family to get care and services, and I have a bit of difficulty with the way it works. It helps in the sense that they will probably direct the family to where the services are on the city street, outside the military, but it will not provide direct support and services to the family. It's a good thing. It's a good creation, and it's across the country. So it's a good initiative, but it needs to evolve a bit better with what's coming up.
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Good afternoon, sir.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
We never hear about everything that is going on regarding post-traumatic stress syndrome and suicide within the Canadian Forces. If an injury is visible, there's no problem, we respond to the needs. However, as far as all the rest is concerned, we do not see it, we do not feel it. Nobody wants to talk about it. According to some psychologists who appeared before us, it would appear that life is great and that everything is going well. However, in real life, that is not what we are hearing.
My question pertains to the veterans directly, particularly those who are still members of the Canadian Forces. We did not deal with the reservists very much. When they're suffering from a visible problem or something similar, they're sent back home. These reservists, who are not part of the Canadian Forces, receive no care. Are you aware of this problem, namely that members of the reserves are simply viewed as reservists, who are not members of the Canadian Forces, and if they are no longer able to be in the theatre of operations, they are sent back home and left to their own devices? Is that how things happen?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
Are you talking about those who are ill or reservists in general? Naturally, the cutbacks that were announced in order to reduce the number of reservists will have an impact. There is a great deal of concern on the bases.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
I'm referring to those who participated in operations and who are really suffering from post-traumatic stress.
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
One of the difficulties is that most reservists are not deployed in formed, integrated units but rather in support troops. When they come back from the theatre of operations, their situation is very different from that of regular members, who remain under the supervision of a unit. Reservists go back to their home unit. This is in a community. The commanding officer of the reserve unit, who knows that his staff have come back following a deployment, is responsible for ensuring that these individuals are provided with the same follow-up as is offered to regular members. However, in certain locations, this is not being done.
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
When reservists are sent into the theatre of operations on a permanent basis, they are part of either class B or class C. As such, they have basically the same status as regular members. Once they have reintegrated their unit, they must report to their armoury once a week. They then return to class A status. Those who begin to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder once they have reintegrated class A must obtain medical care on their own. Their cases fall under provincial jurisdiction.
As part of the follow-up work with reservists, we want to determine if they can reintegrate into class B or C, which would allow them, among other things, to receive treatment. As I mentioned earlier with regard to PTSD and OSI, we are conducting a third follow-up of the file. We have produced a report on injuries suffered by reservists and we'll be reviewing that report.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Mr. Daigle, I have a hard time understanding how those things can occur. Because we need soldiers in Afghanistan, we call on reservists, but once we have sent them over there to serve and then bring them back home, we treat them like less than second-class members. They are sent back to their units and told that they will have to make do with provincial health care. However, we know that people have to wait months to obtain health care services in Quebec or in the rest of Canada, and for those who do not have their own physician, the wait times can be as long as six or seven months. The fact is that those people need to be looked after immediately.
In your view, is the army aware of all suicide cases? Is it possible that a number of people suffering from these problems are not getting the care they need, and that the armed forces are abandoning them because they are merely reservists?
Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman
We have not done a study on suicide because there can be multiple causes and it is very difficult to establish a causal link in such cases. That is why we believe that by placing great emphasis on diagnosing injuries, we can help avoid suicides. As you have indicated, the data we have received from the Canadian Forces concern people who have committed suicide within military facilities. In cases where people committed suicide after having left the Canadian Forces, it is impossible for us to know if there was a link.
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
I cannot even begin to understand how the Canadian Forces can so utterly abandon the reservists they call on to serve. I find that to be disastrous. These people who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder receive no care, or anything for that matter, and are left to themselves. In your opinion, why have the Canadian Forces not taken that problem into consideration?
