Veterans Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2010

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

They're one of the smartest animals in the wild too.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Stoffer and I would probably only agree on the bridging of his Bill C-201. Most other things I think we have a real concern about, including SISIP.

I want to say welcome. We're pleased to have you here today. I know you're aware that we are trying to do this review of the charter to help add some voice to whatever changes may come down the road. Everybody here takes this very seriously and realizes you have all kinds of challenges. My general comment applies to both the military and Veterans Affairs. One of the things we hear more and more as the older vets pass away is that more focus needs to be put on the new vets and that their needs and demands are obviously different. Plus the mentality of all of us has been that when you came out of the Second World War, you just sort of got over it and moved on or whatever, as opposed to today—and I think you put it well, General--when we have them prepared mentally, physically, and psychologically for what they're going into. I commend that.

I have a general question for all of you. It gets into the transition from the military to Veterans Affairs, and we're looking at what we can suggest to make that a better relationship. We think it's a good one, or many of us do, but we realize there are a lot of challenges.

One of the things we heard when we were talking about pensions was that recruits felt that perhaps the information they received several years ago—in other words, the educational process--was not complete. Maybe start with that. How has that changed in recent times? So there would be not just preparation for the physical and mental, but also for what's going to happen financially, what their responsibilities are, and so on. That was a comment we heard at the very beginning of the charter. Maybe I could start there and ask how that's changed the educational process.

[Col Gerry Blais]

I think we've come a long way in one specific area. In the last year you've heard through the media, and I believe in the House, about the stand-up of the joint personnel support unit, through which, across the country, we now have centres at all the military locations—19 now, with another 11 to come. In those locations we have co-located Department of National Defence officials who look after all of the needs for transition for those people, the ill and injured. We also have Veterans Affairs teams with us.

When a person receives notice, six months before it happens, that they're going to be released medically, at that point we ensure that the case management for both Veterans Affairs and DND start to work together on the file so that everything is met, so that when the person does leave the CF they have a very smooth transition, and they're well aware of everything that's going to happen to them and for them.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I appreciate that. There is a question that comes out of that. We always hear of Veterans Affairs appeals. I think every MP gets into those when people aren't happy necessarily with how an appeal has gone. Of course we're not allowed to invite ourselves into the process--that's the law, and we respect it--but one of the common comments seems to be about their incomplete files; in other words, their medical files and so on. The onus is really on the military personnel themselves, I assume. They have access to whatever files they want before they're done. That has to be done before they actually leave the service. Is that correct?

[Col Gerry Blais]

No, not necessarily. Especially with the advent of these new units, we are aware of the folks before they leave, so there's already a relationship there. So if there's anything they require help with, we're there to help them get it. For example, both their medical and personal files go to archives. We are able to access those files from archives for them and assist them in the review and get the documentation they need.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

That's a good clarification. So if they were in an appeal process and felt they had incomplete documentation, there would be....

[Col Gerry Blais]

We'd be happy to help them.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Okay, that's good to know.

Again, on the work in process—I agree a lot of advancement has been made—we were intrigued last year to hear about the.... That's old age, forgetting the term. When they arrive, I think in Turkey, before they come back.... It's the decompression process. Good thing I didn't say decomposition.

One of the things we were interested in and would like to hear more about, because it sounded very good, was the mentoring. With the ombudsman and others we've heard how some fall through the cracks. This is after they've left. Some don't want to come forward. Some don't want to identify and so on. It seemed in that process, if I understood correctly, the retired military member or family were being mentored by folks who had actually been through it for whatever reason. How is that working out?

[Col Gerry Blais]

That program is called the operational stress injury social support program, or OSISS, for short. We have a network for the military person and another one for their family. So either the individual comes forward and asks for help, or, if we hear through the grapevine that someone is struggling, we will send a person to meet with him. There is that one-on-one relationship. These are not counsellors, by any stretch, but what they do provide with that peer support is the impetus, by saying, “Listen, you have to get to the doctor. You have to take your meds. Let's sit down and get your application for Veterans Affairs filled out.” It's things of that nature. When they hear it from somebody who's like-minded, who's been through something similar, they are much more receptive to starting the process.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Okay. Thank you.

I have a question on SISIP, and I understand we can't get into the process, and we certainly know why. Moving forward as programs are advanced or changed, what do you see happening? What would you suggest we be considering to make an improvement in how the programs interrelate? Is there something we should be considering?

[Doug Chislett, National Director, Service Income Security Insurance Plan (SISIP), Department of National Defence]

As an answer, what we need to do is focus on what we have right now. Unfortunately, we have a lot of different organizations trying to attack a lot of different problems all at the same time. So I would suspect, in order to advance the most benefit for the members themselves...under the new Veterans Charter they have excellent opportunities for increased medical and psycho-social support. If that were to be focused on, that could be a great advantage to the members.

SISIP has been doing vocational and long-term disability for an extended period of time—40 years they've been at it. You might want to focus on that as well. So build to your strengths, and eventually down the road, when you've finalized them all, at that point we might look at other alternatives.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Chislett, and thank you, Mr. Kerr.

We've concluded the first round. We're on the second round of five minutes, and it's over to Madam Crombie for five minutes.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

General Kettle, I was quite disheartened by the fact that the chaplaincy program had been cut back in the way it has, a full-time chaplain being eliminated. What were the cost savings that would be realized with the elimination of this position?

[Col Gerry Blais]

Approximately $80,000.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

It doesn't seem like very much relative to the increases in other areas.

[Col Gerry Blais]

If I could perhaps clarify, when the program was set up approximately five years ago, it was a joint effort with Veterans Affairs and DND. As we've moved forward, the realization is that the care after release is not a National Defence responsibility; it is a Veterans Affairs responsibility. Therefore, DND is withdrawing from the program, because it's not our mandate to provide that service. But the service is going to be provided by Veterans Affairs. The exact manner in which they're going to do that has yet to be defined.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I hope they consider reinstating on a more full-time basis rather than a voluntary basis, so that the veterans get the kind of counselling they should be receiving, as my colleague has explained.

[BGen D.C. Kettle]

God bless you.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I have in my hands a report by the ombudsman, André Marin, “Unfair Deductions from SISIP Payments to Former CF Members” from 2003. There was a list of recommendations here, Mr. Bouchard—five of them, in fact. I'm wondering if they've been considered in the changes to the new Veterans Charter or if you've been considering implementing them in the future.

[André Bouchard]

Thank you for your question.

Of the five recommendations we have, the last three recommendations you have on the sheet have all been carried out. Some of them were to put all our policies and application forms on the website. There was also a communication through CANFORGEN with bases. That we're doing on a regular basis. The last one was to have kind of a footprint on bases and units. We have 18 offices across this country, so we have planners, counsellors, and insurance reps who do travel also to satellite units, where we don't have an office. We go to all of the IPSCs. So we are very well entrenched with that last point.

With respect to the first two recommendations, of course those two recommendations are part of the litigation we're facing right now. So obviously of the first two, that the Minister of National Defence can authorize the payment to those who were reduced on account of a pension benefit, this has not been applied. That resulted in the Manuge lawsuit. The first two have not been implemented, and we're awaiting the outcome of the decision of the court.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

What would be the cost of implementing those two?

[André Bouchard]

If we're going back to the ombudsman report of 2003, so that means going back to October of 2000, the cost to implement the recommendations would be well over $300 million. Those numbers were validated about two years ago. If we go back under section 15.1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to 1985, that cost will escalate to well over $500 million.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I wonder if, for the benefit of the committee, you might recirculate the recommendations and kind of a briefing note on where we are with respect to each of them and the costing, if possible.

[André Bouchard]

Yes, I could do that.