Evidence of meeting #10 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pension.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Liberal
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
I will. I'm always up in front of the committee, and it's up to the committee.
Conservative
Parm Gill Conservative Brampton—Springdale, ON
Mr. Chair, can we limit it to no more than a couple of minutes, because we are running out of time, and I'm sure all the members have questions they would like to ask?
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Okay. Unanimous consent is granted.
Mr. Kirkland, please go right ahead for a few minutes.
NDP
Equitas Society Veterans Council
My name is Glen Kirkland. I was born and raised in Langley, B.C., but I reside in Brandon, Manitoba.
I try to bring up one point every chance I get. It's who's our next generation of soldiers. If this generation is not being looked after, who's going to carry that torch? I'm a fifth-generation Canadian soldier, dating back to before Canada was a country. I served proudly and with honours, and so did every generation. There's no way that, if I have the opportunity to have children, they would be serving in the Canadian military, unless there's something drastically changed with ill and injured soldiers. The suicide rate right now is unbelievable.
I have a quick little story, and I won't take very much time. I'm a real estate agent now, and I sold a house to a gentleman named William Elliott. There was some disclosure that, in the house he bought, the gentleman killed himself in the house—this is in Shilo.
Conservative
Parm Gill Conservative Brampton—Springdale, ON
Mr. Chair, I'm not sure if we have a member of the opposition videotaping or taking pictures, which obviously is against the rules of committee, and I would like to ask you, Mr. Chair, to please make a ruling on that.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Because we are not televised, if any member of the committee is taking what I call photo journal representations of this, I would ask that individual to cease immediately, please. Thank you.
Please, Mr. Kirkland, carry on.
Equitas Society Veterans Council
During the disclosure at the sale of the house, I had to explain to William Elliott that the previous person, who was military-based, killed himself in that house. This is killing me, but.... Just a few days ago, William Elliott killed himself in that same house. These are not isolated situations. These guys are not getting the support. It's very clear. There has to be something done.
That's all I have to say.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Mr. Kirkland, thank you very much for that.
Sir, would you introduce yourself and say where you're from?
Aaron Bedard Equitas Society Veterans Council
I'm from Vancouver, British Columbia. My name is Aaron Michael Bedard. I was a combat engineer in the Canadian Forces. I served on Task Force 106. I was outside where Charlie Alpha Bravo companies in the QRF served in Sangin and all that good stuff.
In the summer of 2006, being in constant combat and around colleagues who were dying almost every single day, it was something that's not like suicide but quite similar. You were prepared to die and were accepting it every morning. “Is it my turn yet”, because every day someone was getting hit and killed. It's a road that you can't come back from and I deal with suicide every day.
I have a new wife and a nine-month old and it's something that still pops into my mind every day. And I'm worried that if things take forever to get fixed with this, it's just going to get worse with suicides. It stabs me in the heart every time I see one. We've got an anniversary of Vimy coming up and an anniversary of the armistice, and I hope and I pray that we get it all sorted out before then, because it's going to be pretty hard to celebrate those events if this isn't fixed.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Sir, I thank you very much for that. Again on behalf of the committee, congratulations on your recent nuptials as well. Very good.
We'll now start off for questioning. You may wish to put in your earpiece, please.
Mr. Sylvain Chicoine, for five minutes, please. Thank you.
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today. I also want to thank them for their service to the country, the sacrifices they have made and their efforts to ensure that veterans are treated fairly.
Everyone agrees that it is totally unacceptable for an injured soldier not to get the same level of compensation as any other worker. I think that is unacceptable and that your efforts to correct this situation are laudable.
As far as your case is concerned, the government admitted that there was a social covenant between the Crown and Canadian Armed Forces members, and felt that this covenant had been honoured.
In your view, in what sense has the Government of Canada failed to live up to this covenant and how could the New Veterans Charter be amended to ensure that this social covenant is honoured to your full satisfaction?
As an Individual
I take the positions of lawyers with the usual grain of salt. The government lawyer's position, which has not been reflected in statements of government ministers or others, was that they are respecting the social covenant by the existing legislation.
Now that's a position that a lawyer takes because he's given marching orders. I don't even know that he believes it. But the position was that, yes, there is a social covenant, but we're honouring it with the existing legislation. If we go to trial, we think we'll be able to show that this is not the case.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you.
You mentioned in your complaint that during enlistment, the recruiter talks about the compensation provided to injured soldiers. However, under the Pension Act, if someone enlisted in 2002 and was injured in 2008 he will not be covered by the Act but will be entitled to the compensation provided for in the New Veterans Charter. That sounds a bit like a breach of contract to me.
Don't you think that access to programs under the New Veterans Charter should have been based on the date of enlistment and not on the date that the person was injured?
President, Equitas Society
That's a very good question and normally there's a grandfathering clause for most contracts when you make a fundamental change—and that's reflected in the report that we've submitted to you. In this particular case, you have people enrolling and signing to one set of circumstances and then having that set of circumstances change in the mid-contract period with no grandfathering provisions. That's very different from what you would see in most changes. For instance, when you make pension acts and so on for a workforce, the people who have them previously get to retain them and it's from that date forward that people are told and get the new benefits. So we were very surprised that this change went into effect and there were no grandfathering provisions.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you.
The government is saying that it recognizes that duty and that it is included in the new charter.
Can you comment on that?
President, Equitas Society
Sorry, when you say “duty,” which duty are you referring to?
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Yes. I am talking about the government's sacred duty to take care of wounded veterans.
As an Individual
As I said, this was on a motion to dismiss, and nothing has been decided other than that the case can continue. The argument was that the new Veterans Charter fulfills the social covenant. That's the legal position that was taken by that lawyer at that time.
One of the premises of our case is that this is not true. We'll be able to call evidence showing what the effects are and how it differs from what had gone on, just as we've heard here today.
I was looking for a battle that took place between the new Veterans Charter and the old. Theoretically, one bullet could have been fired and you'd be compensated under the Pension Act, and the next bullet out of the machine gun would be under the new Veterans Charter. We weren't able to schedule such a battle, but theoretically that could have happened. You could have had people right in the middle of the same battle with different bullets hitting them and they would have been treated markedly differently. Theoretically. I never did find that battle.
