Evidence of meeting #10 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pension.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
His statement was that there are actually better economic benefits paid under the new Veterans Charter. That's what he stated based on his actuarial analysis. And he didn't talk about the new veterans independence program, which wasn't part of it. He didn't speak to the $75,800 available for college and university education. So that was just his actuarial calculations.
12:05 p.m.
President, Equitas Society
What I would say on that is that if you took away the clawback and made it not taxable and did something about the beyond-age-65, on that particular issue you're almost done.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
All right. I want to understand something here. Is the intent of your court action simply to throw out the new Veterans Charter and go back to the old Pension Act, or is it to enhance and improve the new Veterans Charter?
12:05 p.m.
President, Equitas Society
The desired outcome is just that the benefits packages offered to soldiers be equal. And really, for the severely disabled under Bill C-55 and so on, a lot of ground has been missed. The biggest problem I see coming right now are these partially disabled soldiers who were reservists, who are now out on civvy street trying to find jobs. They have not been released, but they have these mechanical injuries that are going to affect them for the rest of their lives and they have these very low payments. And because they haven't claimed for post-traumatic stress, their universality of service is not high enough to claim access to any of the other programs.
So what we have, say in the province of British Columbia, is all of these reserve units with these guys with foot problems and stuff with these really disproportionately low payments. I don't think that was the intent of the new Veterans Charter.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
I need don't need this now, but I'd like to ask you, Mr. Scott, if you could table with the committee any analysis you might have done with regard to the new Veterans Charter and how it matches up to workers' compensation schemes in British Columbia.
12:05 p.m.
President, Equitas Society
Yes, we've written a 72-page document compares it to workmen's compensation. For instance, I'll give you my son's case.
He would get—I'm just doing this by memory right now—10% of his income for a lost spleen, 15% for a lost kidney. The pancreas would have to be reassessed on its own. In the province of British Columbia, you can insure your earnings up to $72,000 a year. So that's $6,000 a month. He would get 25% of the $6,000, so about $2,000 a month. That would be reduced to 75% to make it non-taxable. He would then get $1,400 a month non-taxable and non-clawbackable.
He got $41,000. That turned into an annuity is $140 a month. So it's about one-tenth if you compare the two programs.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
It's interesting. Again, to go back to the ombudsman's report, he did a little bit of analysis of worker's compensation and he did look at B.C., and his chart actually shows the new Veterans Charter paying higher benefits than worker's compensation. But, again, I'm not sure what he was comparing. I think that's something that probably should be looked at.
12:05 p.m.
President, Equitas Society
You're 100% on and I've talked to the Veterans Ombudsman and he wanted to start at the top and work down, so his report is on the severely disabled. When you get past the severely disabled to the moderately disabled, who are 40% disabled let's say, and to the partially disabled, who are 15-20% disabled, that's really where you're finding your big issues with the new Veterans Charter.
But his report was on the severely disabled. And Bill C-55 and stuff has done a lot to address that. You're a few tweaks away from having that one done; but at the lower end of the scale, there is still a wide open area of problems.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
12:05 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Mr. Hayes, thank you very much. We now move on to Mr. Rafferty, please, for five minutes.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you, all five, for being here today.
I'm not a government member but an opposition member. Just to clarify what the government believes about this, regardless of what questioning might come from the other side, in the recent decision in September of the British Columbia Supreme Court, the counsel for the government said:
Counsel for the defendant concedes, for the purpose of this application, that the benefits and services formerly available to Canadian Forces members and veterans under the Pension Act were substantially better than those that are now available to them under the NVC.
So that's a quote in that court decision in September. The government is fully aware of these issues and we're all here, hopefully, to make sure that those tweaks happen and the other things happen with the new Veterans Charter.
I just want to ask a couple of questions.
Mr. Barry, could you just briefly tell us what it has meant to you to have Tommy, your service dog, with you.
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Tommy has been an absolute delight. He saved my life in a lot of ways. He's given me back access in ways that I didn't have before. I've been debilitated with post-traumatic stress disorder since 2010, rarely leaving my residence, and to be able to be in Ottawa today and to do some of the things I've been able to do over the last year, having Tommy has been an absolute benefit.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
There definitely could be more resources in place. This is a new program. Tommy is the first dog in British Columbia to receive his guide animal certificate for post-traumatic stress disorder. The benefits that Tommy brings forth give me a life back. I'm no longer confined to my house; I'm able to go out and interact. There are definite benefits.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Don't back up because your dog's ear is under your wheel.
12:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you.
He's been absolutely delightful for my life. With post-traumatic stress disorder, it's a continuum disorder, a spectrum disorder. There are many different places along the two points, and Tommy's definitely something for guys that are at my stage. That can be a benefit, absolutely.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Berry.
Mr. Bedard and Mr. Kirkland, I wonder if you could each maybe comment on my next question. You're both relatively recent service members. I wonder if you could maybe explain to us or at least give us an indication or sense of what rank and file members, young men and young women who are serving right now, think about the new Veterans Charter. Do you have anything you can share with us on that?
12:10 p.m.
Equitas Society Veterans Council
I decided to use social media to set up an opportunity for fellows to have access to the information forms they need to fill out to get their military medical records and their Veterans Affairs Canada history, in the event they may eventually choose to be a representative plaintiff in the case, if it proceeds. I put out a word through some different groups one day in July, and 350 veterans, many of whom are currently serving but are fearful to use their own names and use different names, including their wives' names in a lot of cases, met up with me. I was suddenly connected with about 25 of them who are 100% disabled, people whom we didn't know about. And I only did that on one day in July.
I have trigger issues and can only do so much. My attempt is to try to find these guys and to help out these fellows. And I know for a fact that through my own experience what's going on. I know exactly what's going on because I went through it in my time. In my period of time leaving the regiment, there was no JPSU. I was put in a holding unit. My file was lost for a year; it fell through the cracks.
I don't ever want to hear that word or statement again, and to be horrified that it's a dead end.... Having the monthly payment for life is a guarantee whereas there's uncertainty with one chunk, especially for someone who's never had any money before, a 20-year-old, who just began working. If they lose it all, it's incomparable and goes beyond the numbers.
12:10 p.m.
Equitas Society Veterans Council
Yes, just briefly. Peter MacKay said in Parliament that I was able to stay in for as long as I wanted, and I was given that opportunity. And when I asked if this was going to be given to all wounded soldiers, they said “no”. So I quit. I put in my release. It's one soldier, one standard; one veteran, one standard. That's not the case. I was given an opportunity that no one else was. And I'm going to be one of those success stories. I did my return-to-work program. I am successful, but it's not universal. I had preferential treatment. I couldn't take that. How could you offer that to somebody and expect them to be able to sleep at night?
12:10 p.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Mr. Kirkland, thank you very much.
Mr. Rafferty, thank you.
We now move onto Mr. Opitz.
Mr. Opitz, welcome to the committee, sir.
December 10th, 2013 / 12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First of all, thank you all for appearing today. I'm on the defence committee normally, and Mr. Kirkland visited us there not that long ago. In fact, the defence committee is conducting a study on the care of the ill and injured. We were actually in Petawawa last Thursday, touring the JPSU and some of the facilities there. And I was in Shilo a couple of month ago for a different event, but took the opportunity while I was there to look at some of the issues that are going on in Shilo.
That just illustrates that all of us in the House are very interested in making sure that this is right by veterans, and we're working very hard to do that.
To that end, sir, Minister Fantino announced that he would invite the veterans to the committee here for you to be able to air your concerns to Parliament, which you're doing today, which is fantastic. But at that time, did you expect the minister to ask us to bring forward recommendations on new language to be added to the new Veterans Charter capturing the duty, the obligation, and the commitment of the Government of Canada towards Canadian veterans?
12:15 p.m.
President, Equitas Society
That's a good question. A lot of people have asked what the solution is, and I've always said to every person, “Just acknowledge that there are some gaps, acknowledge that there are some problems, and then seek to close those gaps and those problems”. One of the concerns I have is that, when you go into a review process with predetermined ideas already in mind, it really doesn't make the review process that valid—in other words, if you say, “This is going to be the outcome; now have your review”. We're very open to what this committee does. There is just the fact that we want to raise, that for whatever reason we got down this road, we now have hundreds of people who have contacted us and they have bona fide cases of gaps in their benefits under this program.
What does the solution look like? I would hope you will be able to offer those solutions.