Veterans Affairs Committee on April 8th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

We have a really busy schedule this afternoon. This thing called votes, this pesky thing that goes on, interferes with the time a bit. We're going to try to get one or two of the other witnesses in early, if we can, and get started there.

Thank you for being here.

As you know, we're continuing the review of the enhanced new Veterans Charter, and we're very pleased to have our witnesses here today.

I think the clerk has talked to you. We look for a presentation of up 10 minutes, if we could, from each of you, as I understand.

I'm going as they're listed here. It's David Fascinato and Mr. Derryk Fleming. Mr. Fascinato is here as an individual, and Derryk Fleming is here from the CBG Veterans Well Being Network. Thank you for coming.

You know what we're up to here. We look forward to your presentations.

If you're ready, either one of you can start.

[Derryk Fleming, Member, 31 CBG Veterans Well Being Network]

I would like to thank all the subcommittee members on this panel for offering the group I am here to represent, 31 Combat Brigade Veterans Well Being Network, an opportunity to present to you here today.

When the original new veterans act legislation was brought into law, it had all-party support and the blessing of the Royal Canadian Legion. I raise this point simply to draw attention to the whole issue itself. It is vital that this subcommittee find a way to look past the upcoming election in October 2015 and treat this issue as a national issue, and beyond simply a party issue.

The men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces proudly wear a Canadian flag on their uniform, and its incredibly disheartening to many when they see needs of veterans and their families unnecessarily politicized and positive changes held up for purposes other than what is required to uphold the dignity and respect that our veterans have rightfully earned.

A transitioning is happening with the demographics of veterans around our country. The traditional image of the last generation was an elder veteran from either the World War II era or the Korean War. These veterans served with great distinction in our country and our country recognized their service unequivocally. A transition is now happening amongst the citizens of this country where the image of a young veteran is now being recognized, and unlike the greatest generation before, this image is not fully understood and there are social issues now surrounding it that are a source of mental health issues confronting both veterans and active serving members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

The sacrifices made on behalf of this nation over the past generation have not been felt or borne by the general population and this has led to a serious disconnect between what we have asked of our soldiers, sailors, and airmen, and the true cost that results from being recognized as a major international nation on the world stage.

Federal dollars expended by itself will not solve the primary issues that have been the result of the Canadian Forces being deployed almost without respite for over a generation now.

I would like to look at this issue for the next few minutes framing the issue from the bottom up and from there, as our elected representatives it is your decision to make, how you see the federal government living up to its commitment that took place when each of us swore the oath of service.

The first issue I'd like to address is stigma. Stigma is a social issue. It's not an individual issue. To truly improve outcomes for our soldiers and veterans, this I believe is the number one priority that needs to be addressed. 31 Combat Brigade Veterans Well Being Network was created to support a network for the much more dispersed veterans in our communities who do not have the support network in place to alleviate the isolation and alienation many of these veterans feel in their home communities. Stigma is the reason they withdraw into the isolation and begin the downward spiral. There are excellent supports in place that provide veterans the life skills to interact fully and lead meaningful lives in their post-service years. Some of the supports include: service dogs, OSI support groups, and one program in particular that my wife Shellie and I attended was Can Praxis in Alberta.

31 Combat Brigade Veterans Well Being Network has proven exceptionally valuable in the response time it takes for a veteran or a spouse to reach out at any hour of the day, holidays included, and literally within seconds, there is a response from one of more than 700 people involved now with our group.

I can't believe there's any other support network in this country that is that responsive and it costs the federal government precisely nothing.

32 Brigade, which is in the Toronto area, has been so impressed by the group that they're now modelling it for their own area. In less than a week, they have over 500 members.

The success of this has now spawned a second brigade level and the goal is for it to hopefully expand more nationally. There are five division areas in this country and all it takes is leadership in one of those areas and literally, we have a ready-made template that could be replicated. Again, it costs nothing to the federal government.

The role of these veterans well-being networks is not to provide direct services per se. It's there to support and stabilize the veterans and to make sure that they do get to the services that the federal government has provided and are in place.

Just so there's clarity, for a lot of those agencies, if you don't call during business hours, you're not going to get the help you need, but for a lot of these veterans, as long as we can touch base with them immediately, we can help build that level of trust so they can come forward and overcome that stigma.

Stigma as a social issue needs to be addressed directly toward the general Canadian population. I believe a two-tier approach is necessary. A sustained general awareness campaign over several years can have a huge impact in changing the mindset of the general population toward veterans with PTSD, OSI, or TBI. However, a general awareness campaign also requires local leadership in every municipality where veterans in need are located. Veterans Affairs Canada case managers must be empowered to directly assist a veteran in his community or place of employment, to educate and inform colleagues and employers. This is urgently needed.

The Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion could be empowered to have a mandate where no local VAC service office is located, to advocate for that veteran in need. This should also be addressed. It's incredibly damaging when the mass media report an incident and the label of PTSD veteran is the lead. To be fair to Canadian media, they have been more responsible than other media that also broadcast into Canada. The federal government does need to look at how incredibly damaging and debilitating it is for all of us to see a fearmongering label attached that ferments an outcome that divides us from the general population we served.

Veterans issues are inseparable from family issues and the ultimate goal for the new Veterans Charter, as you reform it, is I believe we have to look not only at the veteran but at the veteran's family as well, because they're the ones who truly support that veteran the most.

I cannot stress enough the more you support the family as a whole unit, the better the health outcomes for the veteran in need. Spouses and children need to be reflected by more than a simple line in the equation. Much can be done in this area and a holistic approach is required to supporting these veterans and their families.

On retraining and career choices, I believe much work has been done with the new Veterans Charter, but even more work can be done, providing more opportunities in the retraining and career choices of soldiers transitioning. I fully believe that a great deal of work can be accomplished in this area. When I look back to a year ago, I looked at this issue in great despair, seeing such a waste of human potential and the incredible amount of talent being unused and unvalued in the civilian sector. I do want to give credit to the federal government; in the last year, some significant changes have been made. More could be done but at the same time at least we're seeing movement on this issue, and I applaud you for that.

On the federal hiring initiative, the Canada Company, one initiative in particular I'd like to raise is a local initiative called Delta Company and it's located in Windsor within our area of responsibilities, within 31 combat brigade. I would like to draw special attention to something I believe would be of great value that currently is not in place.

Many soldiers have been attached to the joint personnel support units at various Canadian Forces bases in this country. These injured soldiers still have much to offer our nation. Some will return to their home units after they recover from their injuries. Others will need to transition to other career paths. My civilian career after my service has been one where I teach adult learners, and I also run the original pilot program of the Canadian Forces cooperative education program. I took over the reins of this program in 2002 from its original creator who was Lieutenant-Colonel Wayne Hill of the Lincoln and Welland regiment.

Since 2002 I have recruited junior and senior high school students into the Canadian Forces primary reserve. About 30 of them served most recently in combat roles as infantrymen or gunners in Afghanistan. I recognize the post-deployment changes from some of my own experiences, and I believe we owe it to this youngest generation of veterans to do our best to reintegrate them fully. They and their families should not suffer from a lack of understanding and awareness as many veterans before them have. That used to be the norm and not the exception.

Many of these soldiers in the joint personnel support units by their own choice may be better served by reintegrating them into their chosen post-service communities where they will be provided support by the local reserve unit and area. But I want to stress it's important that the Canadian Forces regular force budget still absorb that.

A 6- to 12-month transition from being employed full time by the reserve unit initially, where their self-esteem and skills honed can be upheld and shared with less experienced soldiers, that transitions towards the end to full-time civilian employment opportunities within the private or other public sectors by the end of the transition period. In a sense, we created a program to bring civilians into the military. We could easily create a program to take soldiers and veterans and bring them out of the military back into a civilian career and retrain them.

Local relationships need to be developed between the home units, educational institutions, local employers, labour councils, and municipal governments. It needs to be flexible, and adaptable to the needs and interests of the veterans and their families. The federal government's role here is really to get out of the way and encourage local leadership to happen. Not every fix comes with a big cheque from Ottawa or the provinces involved. This is where I mention the perspective from the bottom up for the veterans most in need.

One of the reasons why I didn’t come forward for 23 years is, as any veteran knows, there’s always someone worse off than you—there always is—and you always step aside to make sure they get the services they need. That’s just part of the military ethos.

The local reserve units can provide these soldiers with the social support and networking opportunities they will not have being kept on one of the main bases and shown to the gate on the final day of their contract. It is also about developing the long-term support contacts they will need that extend well beyond the end of their regular force employment contract. This is about long-term best outcomes and not short-term fixes.

I reflect on the work of several members of Parliament here and how they have helped veterans in their home communities. There are many of you, but to illustrate a point, a close friend of mine, Blair Davis, was helped by MP Peter Stoffer, in the House of Commons itself. Equally admirable was my MP, Rick Dykstra, who went above and beyond, at my request, to assist a veteran in distress neither of us has ever met, but reached out on our 31 CBG Veterans Well Being Network to identify the need. I was able to coordinate with his office staff to assist a veteran in Alberta by contacting the appropriate member of Parliament.

The reason I raise that is that I don’t think that story gets told enough about how you guys do cross party lines. This really is a national issue, not a partisan issue. Hopefully, it will not be a wedge issue in the next election.

This is reflective of good governance, and no one party has a monopoly on it. We elect our representatives to stand up for us, and all too often the good work gets overlooked. Much needs to be done, but much has been done, and I am here asking for you to look at this issue from the bottom up instead of just the top down. You will find more reasonable and prudent outcomes when you change the perspective.

I have had issues of stigma myself within my own work environment, and still currently do. I do not fault any one person or agency there. Stigma can be overcome by education, awareness, and courage. People fear what they do not understand and the Government of Canada has made a conscious decision over many governments of both parties to allow the disconnect to grow between our small professional armed forces and the primary reserves that augment them and the general population that requires their services for both internal and international commitments. If we don't close the gap on the disconnect, the issue of stigma will not be resolved, more needless lives will be lost, and more families will suffer.

The federal government does have it within its ability to close this disconnect. We need this government to tell our stories, to advocate for us when fear, ignorance, apathy, and indifference lead to stigma. No veteran should ever be left behind in this society. When you make changes to the new Veterans Charter, the hope is that is what will happen.

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fleming, we appreciate that.

Now we'll hear from Mr. Fascinato, please.

[David Fascinato, As an Individual]

Good afternoon.

Mr. Chair, honourable members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, fellow witness, and guests, my name is David Fascinato, and today I will be sharing with you the story of my transition from the Canadian Forces into civilian life.

I joined the Canadian Forces army reserve in the summer of 2005, just down the street at the Governor General's Foot Guards in Ottawa. I was drawn to the military for a number of reasons, the most prominent being that I wanted to challenge myself and to do so in the service of others. At that time I was enrolled at the University of Ottawa, but I knew that something was missing from my life. When I joined the army, I came to understand the role I could play in helping others and to better the communities in which we served.

As I completed my initial training for the army, the war in Afghanistan was heating up. The narrative was shifting, as it became evident that we, as young soldiers, were being prepared to fight in a conflict overseas.

In 2009 I was selected to join the military's psychological operations capability, a unit charged with managing the perceptions and behaviours of select foreign audiences in support of military and political objectives—or, as I like to say, we were the folks who were tasked with building consensus and alignment with local stakeholders and mission partners to ensure the delivery of governance, development, and security programs.

I was deployed in 2010 for eight months to Kandahar province, Afghanistan, with Task Force 1-10, or the 1st Royal Canadian Regiment battle group. In reality, however, I ended up working more with our American allies from the 10th Mountain Division, U.S. Army.

I like to think of my time in Afghanistan with fondness, believe it or not, for it was and still is one of the most precious and inspiring experiences I will likely ever have. Working on the front line, I built and managed relationships with local leaders, along with representatives of other government agencies, to ensure that we had a meaningful and lasting impact. We did this in the face of stiff Taliban opposition, who sought to dismantle our efforts through lies, intimidation, and fear.

Despite their best attempts, I saw first-hand that hope and cooperation could triumph in the face of coercion and violence. I'm fiercely proud of our accomplishments. While there were bad days—it was a war—I count myself infinitely lucky that the good days generally eclipsed the bad days.

Thirty days after stepping off that plane ride home, I was back in classes at the University of Ottawa. The transition was shocking—not the least of which had to do with coming back to winter in Ottawa—because I had returned to a life that I had paused and left behind two years earlier, not really being certain if I was actually ever going to get the chance to press play again.

I finished my studies and moved to Toronto in the spring of 2012, where I began the task of finding a job that would, technically, leverage my skills and experiences from the military. This is where I came into contact with Treble Victor Group, commonly known as 3V, an organization that seeks to enable ex-military leaders to succeed in business, a task that is accomplished through a shared set of common values, a strong network, and a strong strategic vision. Within three months of building a professional network across multiple sectors and industries, I finally landed a job at a large public relations firm in downtown Toronto.

Herein lies the mistake I made during my transition, and it's taken me about a year and a half to figure it out. It isn't my skills or experiences that make me unique, although they of course certainly help; rather, it is the attributes and qualities I bring to any potential employer that distinguish me from many other candidates. Whether it's my approach to obstacles, my ability to solve complex problems, my flexibility to adapt to change, or my openness to continuous learning and professional growth, these qualities were honed over the course of my career in the military, to the point where they are mature and valuable aspects of who I am as a young Canadian entering today's competitive workforce.

I tried too hard to make my skills and experiences fit, whereas I should have accepted and appreciated that I have a precious set of soft skills that enable me to adapt, overcome, and succeed in the face of adversity.

After a year in public relations, I recently left and began working as an independent consultant providing advisory services to a number of clients in the greater Toronto area. I'm also currently interviewing with members of the big four consulting firms.

In addition to my work with Treble Victor Group, where I currently coordinate events and communications on their executive, in the last five months I've also become involved with Veterans Emergency Transition Services Canada, or VETS Canada. This is a non-profit organization with charitable status that connects homeless and marginalized veterans with services and support. I'm a member of the Ontario executive helping to launch that organization's footprint into the province for this spring.

I'm also a member of the Veteran Transition Advisory Council, or VTAC, where I sit on the marketing group and work with members of corporate Canada to address the challenges surrounding veteran transition and hiring. In that role, I also work with members of Canada Company on the military employment transition portal, or MET portal.

Needless to say, there are many aspects of transition that interest me greatly.

One parting thought, though.... In the military, one of the first lessons we learn is to shape the environment to enable our success. Through my efforts with Treble Victor, the Veteran Transition Advisory Council, and VETS Canada, I am attempting to do just that on a number of complex planes.

The second lesson we learn is to collaborate. Therefore to succeed, it is not up to any one organization, one department, or one party; rather, it is up to all of us to work together to ensure this generation of veterans is adequately supported and enabled to achieve the success for which they yearn, whatever shape or form that takes.

I know that I will continue my work in veteran transition to shape the environment by collaborating as broadly as possible, aided by all those attributes and qualities that the military helped to foster within me.

We have a generation of young veterans who have made a lasting impact with their varied and distinguished service in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and I implore the members of the committee not to forget that many of these young men and women now stand poised to make outstanding contributions in communities across this great nation. This generation of young veterans needs your support. They need to be enabled to succeed, not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it's the smart thing to do.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Chair, and honourable members. I look forward to any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We will now go to questions from the committee.

We start with Mr. Stoffer, please, for six minutes.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

To the two of you, thank you not only for your service but also for your excellent presentations today. They are very articulate and very helpful for our committee as we go forward.

Derryk, you indicated that it was 22 or 23 years before you came forward because, as you rightfully said, so many of you are so proud and know very well that there are other veterans who may be worse off than you. You talked about the family aspect as well.

If you were writing the new charter aspect of it, my first question for you is—and then, David, I have one for you later—what aspect of the families would you include? It's not just spouses and children, but an awful lot of veterans, of course, are single, and they have parents who are possibly quite reliant on them as well. Perhaps you could just elaborate a bit more on the family aspects of the charter.

Thank you very much for coming.

[Derryk Fleming]

To define the nucleus of a family, as we all know the traditional nuclear family has changed quite a bit over a while. It really is those immediate people who provide them the support, and they're doing it 24/7. They're the ones they turn to first. When they're sick, they're the ones who go to the drugstore or drive them to their appointments.

To me, it doesn't necessarily have to be the tradition of the spouse and the children. It could be parents, it could be common-law; whatever the orientation is fine. But it's those immediate people who are providing the support who should be recognized as that family unit if they're sharing a similar dwelling or they're in their lives every day.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

David, I have a question for you, and thank you, as well, for coming.

One of the concerns that I have—and I've spoken to small businesses in Nova Scotia—is that although they are more than willing to hire a veteran, or someone who has served their country, one of the concerns they have—and Derryk pointed out the so-called stigma—is that many of them feel they haven't had the training. For example, when a veteran is hired at company A, company A may not understand what triggers this individual or may set them off. If the person gets hired and then has to take off a lot of sick time because of stress concerns....

You're working with corporate Canada. What do you see as the shortfall, in many ways, of training corporate Canada or the business community to understand that some of these veterans they'll be hiring, although highly skilled and very good at what they may be able to do, may have certain psychological conditions that may need to be looked out for to understand what this person may be going through on a particular day?

[David Fascinato]

Interestingly enough I had the pleasure of working on the business case for why to hire a Canadian veteran, and how to craft that message and understanding to corporate Canada.

One of the interesting things I found in my study there was a statistic from a recent Ipsos Reid survey published, I think, on March 30 or 31, 2014. What I basically discovered here is that there is an ambivalence that's greater than any general stigma towards veterans. You can say that's generally a good thing because it's quite different from the challenge that Americans face where there is a very strong negative stigma attached to potential veteran hires.

Whereas there is a negative perception in the United States about veterans, in Canada, from my understanding and from my research, there is actually a greater ambivalence or indifference toward veterans.

The challenge therefore is to craft a strong story of the veteran who can transition, who can bring those attributes, and experiences, and skills in a positive manner to those jobs in the corporate realm—or however you like to define it—and to do so in a most effective and efficient way. That's obviously in advance of any general negative stigma that might get out there.

It's always a challenging thing to deal with, mental health issues in the workplace, and there are general campaigns, such as Bell Let's Talk and others, that have taken great strides in ensuring that those sorts of issues can be talked about in an open and safe environment with employers. I think moving forward it would be proactive to engage those sorts of campaigns in order to raise the discussion level about those very important issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Briefly.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

Derryk, you had talked about from the bottom up.

One of the things I think any government would have concerns about is ensuring that what are in most cases non-profit organizations—such as VETS Canada; Paws Fur Thought, Medric Cousineau's service dogs; Can Praxis— most of these volunteer groups are able to do the right thing on behalf of the veteran. And because their heart's out there, they may do the wrong thing, which in turn may hold back the veteran in some cases. In that regard, can you explain how the bottom up would assist the government in terms of that communication and cooperation to really do what is their purpose to do, to help that veteran and their family?

[Derryk Fleming]

When I think of the cost involved with medical care, having the mental health experts in place, having the infrastructure so that we have veterans agencies that we can go to, that's sort of the big structure. But when I referred to the bottom up, much of what's missing, honestly, is local mentorship.

The reason I say that is I've run arguably one of the most successful Canadian Forces cooperative education programs in the country since 2002. The soldiers who come through, it's almost like being an old football coach of theirs. I get them coming back again and again. I mean this is hundreds. A lot of them, what they're looking for, like I said, is mentorship. When the trust is there.... Because a big issue about PTSD is trust, it really is. It is probably the single most precious commodity that these young soldiers need. And when the trust is there, we can help direct them to where the appropriate resources are.

So as the federal government, as you expend resources, we want to make sure those resources are expended in a very accountable and effective manner, because when I mentioned about the guy— No one wants to see someone who really needs help do without. This is the whole reason I look at the bottom-up approach.

Having support groups, whether it's Veterans Canada helping the homeless or the Veterans Well Being Network, which costs nothing to the federal government, we want to bring these people to where those supports are in place.

The whole idea is you don't have to necessarily replicate the resources of 50 places, but we want to make sure that those veterans are aware of what's happening. We want to make sure before any damage is done to their families or their relationships or their place of employment, we want to get them to be proactive and get them to those resources. This can be replicated nationally.

In terms of hands on, I mentioned retraining and maybe bringing some people back from the joint program support units. Again local mentorship can make all the difference in the world. The one thing the Canadian Forces had in abundance, we had some fantastic senior NCOs and junior NCOs who are still in the area. These are the ready-made mentors in your communities. So when that reg force member who comes back from Wainwright or comes back from Petawawa.... The local economy in Petawawa can't absorb that many people transitioning out of the forces.

But if they come back to their home communities at least a little sooner, we can provide that local mentorship. We can help them transition. We can help them make the connections, whether it's through educational facilities, through the public sector, the private sector. These opportunities are there and they're sustainable. This is the reason why I say this, I really think the answer to really fixing the new Veterans Charter is to take a bottom-up approach, not necessarily a top down.

It's not that I want you to spend less money on veterans, far from that. But the whole point is saying, let's make sure that those veterans who are truly in need are the ones who get the help and there are no questions asked. The more that we can support and not necessarily have to—I don't want to say discard.... But to me it's such a waste to have a 25-year-old veteran who with the right support, with the right mentorship, can have a fantastic new career ahead of him. That opportunity doesn't happen because the leadership wasn't there, the support wasn't there—whether it's the family unit, whether it's the medical system, whether it's the local community, whether it's dealing with issues of stigma, the answer is really the bottom up. This way the sacred obligation can be met because we're using our resources more efficiently.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fleming.

Mr. Dykstra, nice to have you here this afternoon and you now have six minutes, please.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I just wanted to point out that I hope I'm not the reason that a few of my colleagues have had to step out for a couple of moments to talk.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

They'll come back as soon as you're finished.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

That line doesn't surprise me at all.

I'd like to thank both of you for being here this afternoon—Derryk in particular, being from my home community. You mentioned something about 2002 and perhaps David, you could comment on this as well. I do appreciate the comments you made with respect to trying to remove partisanship with how we deal with this issue.

You were looking at this system from the inside out in 2002 when you began your transition to what you're doing now. I guess my question for both of you is, when you left, did you know where to go right away in terms of beginning to deal with the transition? And second, do you think that folks like both of you are able to, in a very meaningful way based on the organization that you represent—Derryk in particular and David as a consultant more or less—are you able to assist our young veterans now so that they're not facing the same types of issues you may have faced in 2002 when you left?

[Derryk Fleming]

Absolutely. Not having that sort of perspective, it's almost frightening, right, because you have come from an environment that's one of the most supportive environments you can have.

I read this in an article maybe about six months ago, but it really struck a nerve with me, and it was the fact that for a lot of veterans it's actually quite shocking moving from a military environment into a civilian environment, where you don't have each other's back, right? You are that close, you are that supportive, you are that accountable to each other, and to be in a civilian environment where—I'm not knocking it, but it's a little more fend for yourself, it's a little more cover your back. You really don't have that same trust and that loyalty to each other. It's almost a very frightening scenario. As I said, for some of the veterans, they don't make that adjustment.

So for a lot of these bottom-up initiatives, that's what it's really about, to support them so they sort of get their feet under them, they get their confidence, they sort of learn how the new rules are played in this different environment, and then these individuals and their families can be successful for the next decades. This is the whole idea about being proactive and looking at it from mentorship from the bottom up.

And I don't think it can necessarily be imposed by Ottawa. The support needs to be there. The political synergy needs to be there, but a lot of this has to happen from the local level, and the federal government has to trust us, right, in the local sense. It's not asking for a blank cheque, but as I said, when I worked with Rick, it's basically give us your blessing, and if we need you to make phone calls or make discussions to help facilitate things, that's what we really need. That allows you to then focus on the big-ticket items. We can help a whole whack of veterans, but those most in need are the ones we don't want to see fall through the cracks.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

David.

[David Fascinato]

I'll speak to transition in two different planes here. One is that initial transition when I got off the plane a few years ago, versus the career transition, which happened more recently.

With regard to the first, I essentially came back from Afghanistan, as I mentioned. Thirty days later I'm sitting at the steps of the University of Ottawa saying “okay, back to class.”

There are services of support there in existence for reservists to tap into for support, to make that initial transition a little bit easier, but they're really hard to come by, and there's kind of an absence of communication, more or less, with regard to if I had an issue. I saw friends first-hand who had issues coming back and who probably needed some resources. The services of support are there, and then the individuals over here, and there's no communication with how the individual might navigate the process in order to get the resources they need.

It's a long battle for many people, and I sat with my friends through many a long night helping them navigate those issues. So there's a communication thing. That's what I wanted to emphasize.

Second, I'm going to echo Derryk here with regard to the transition of the job. In my experience it comes down to grassroots organization groups like Treble Victor that I have first-hand experience with. It's a wonderful resource to tap into a community of ex-military individuals to find that mentorship, to find that guidance and leadership to help you navigate through that next phase of transition. You have made it back from the conflict. You have made it back to just a normalized life, let's say, and now you actually want to actualize your aspirations and achieve your goals, and that usually involves getting a job in the economy.

How do you do that? It's building that community, and building that network. It has been my experience, and I'm very grateful for the experience I've had with Treble Victor in building that professional network in the GTA. I know there are chapters that are growing throughout the country, so it's an organization that will grow in time, of course. And it is absolutely indispensable.

So to echo the bottom-up approach, there are groups advocating within that realm and that are ensuring there is continued support to the individual when and if they choose to make that initial leap into civilian life, as it were.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

We're past the six minutes, Mr. Dykstra.

Ms. Freeland, welcome this afternoon. It's nice to have you here. You're up for six minutes, please.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

First of all, thank you, everyone, for having me here with you. As you probably all know, Frank is at Vimy Ridge, so he has asked me to sit in. Thank you for that privilege. It's been really fascinating.

Thank you, Derryk and David. I've learned a lot from listening to you.

I've been really interested in particular, Derryk, in this point you have made a few times about the need for more of a bottom-up approach.

Can you speak to—and maybe, David, you will have some comments on this too—some systematic ways we could build that bottom-up approach into the whole policy?

[Derryk Fleming]

The first concrete one, I would say, is looking at the JPSUs, where if we can transition.... Of course, only of their own free will, but for those soldiers who know they're not going to re-up and are going to be transitioning back, instead of having them, say, in Petawawa for up to two years, where there's no opportunity to network, to develop more skills.... In the army, one of the terms you never wanted to be referred to as is what we used to call a “MIR commando”. I can't believe the morale is very high for a lot of them, because they're not with their comrades in the battalion or in their unit or squadron.

For those soldiers who are looking for a new opportunity and a new transition, you already have the infrastructure. You're paying for it, right? With the local armouries and the some 50-odd local reserve units, you can absorb pretty much every one of those soldiers who would choose to make that transition and you can bring them back sooner. While they're there, they can then transition over from basically 100% of their day doing some type of administrative job at the local unit. Over time, it's almost like a reverse co-op like the one I run for the District School Board of Niagara, where they're transitioning out of the military and into a civilian career versus bringing young soldiers into the military.

It can be done. The opportunity is there. The infrastructure is already paid for. This is what I'm saying. You can get more value for the dollars you're already spending if we look at how they're being spent.

The other part of a bottom-up approach, again, is the mentorship. It's one thing for them to get new education or training, or to do almost like an adult co-op type of program, but there are the social networks, both with the local soldiers, in being able to integrate with these guys who will become their buddies, who will become their support network outside of their nuclear family.... But also, at the same time, they're getting a chance to be seen in the community, and that will help close the disconnect that I referred to in my comments.

The more opportunities where we see veterans out there.... If we can make the Helmets to Hardhats program more prominent or more successful.... There are a lot of opportunities whereby we can close the gap that currently exists, where we have this highly professional Canadian Armed Forces but it's small and it's out of the way. Unless it's on a news clip, for the most part the average Canadian does not see it.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

To follow up on that, Derryk, do you think that, for example, as part of this transitioning, people should begin their job search and that sort of thing before they go?

[Derryk Fleming]

Before they leave the military? Absolutely.

I'll give you an example: the Helmets to Hardhats program. To have them learn a new trade is awesome, but in the long term, to make this self-sustaining, what I truly believe is necessary is not only to teach them skills such as becoming an electrician or a plumber or working in HVAC, but also to teach them the business skills, because small business is the real generator of jobs.

The first person who's going to hire another veteran is a veteran. For these veterans who get into that Helmets to Hardhats program, if we can, say, over four to five years, also give them the training so they can manage their own business, the expenditure that you put into these programs now is going to pay huge dividends down the road, because it will become self-sustaining.