Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2015

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Okay. So it's not that it's not accessible to members, SCAN seminars are offered at bases across the country.

[Mélanie Witty]

It's not uncommon that I meet with a member who is from the U.S. and made his way down. DND pays for it. They come to attend the SCAN. Or they're overseas. Wherever you are in the world you are invited to take part.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That's a good point actually because we do have a lot of members who serve in liaison positions or exchange positions in other countries, particularly, for example, the U.S. That's just close enough, but they have to make a trip to come to the SCAN seminar.

[Mélanie Witty]

We go to Colorado once a year.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Yes. I'll ask this question to DND when they come. I'm going to ask why it's not mandatory. When we check out of the military we actually have a release spreadsheet. You must go see pay and benefits, you must go see your release adviser, you must do this, you must do that, and everything must be checked off before actually you're considered to be released. I'll ask them why it is that SCAN seminars, while perhaps they might be highly recommended, are not actually a check box on a release format so that you actually have to attend at least part of it to know if you want to go to the rest of it. You probably can't answer that so I'll ask them that.

One of the things I'm going to find interesting about this study is you've got a member in DND who is receiving programs and services from DND because he is a serving soldier or she is a serving soldier and then there is SISIP. They transition through SISIP. The SCAN seminar I think is information based. So it's here's what's happening to you, here are the resources that are available to you. As you're leaving DND, SISIP might be providing some services. VAC provides services as well. I'm going to be interested in understanding what is it, for example, that SISIP might do that you might also do and are they cancelling?

For example, take vocational training. When I went through my SCAN seminar and interfaced with SISIP I was told I believe about vocational training and what was available to me in terms of vocational training. But I believe you have vocational training at least in your slide package.

So, for example, is that the same vocational training? In other words, there is a $70,000 limit in vocation training—you can confirm that number for me—and SISIP would offer something else. Are these two different types of vocational training? Or are they considered one program with two entry points? Can you tell us a bit about that?

[Mélanie Witty]

When a medically releasing member signed up for the CF, he had to contribute to Manulife. You have to pay your dues in case there is long-term disability. SISIP owes it to you. They owe you two years of income replacement post-release. They owe you a chance of school no longer than two years post-release up to $25,000, approximately, of tuition.

The rehab program knew about that when it was brought on the table in 2006. Our vocational portion of the program will kick in in two years, when SISIP runs out. So if a member released tomorrow, for example, Veterans Affairs will pay for the medical and the psychosocial needs with the rehab program. SISIP will do the vocational chance for school, income replacement. We don't talk about it. We can discuss it, but we don't touch it. It's SISIP's responsibility. Two years goes by. Then the chance for school is paid by us because of the rehab program. So there's a bit of an interface here.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

So on the one hand one could say it's a little bit confusing because you have different organizations offering services. But on the other hand you could say the veteran actually has access to services at many different points. It's not one entry point, that's it, you missed the window, that's too bad. There are services offered by SISIP for example in vocation training. And there are other services also in vocational training offered by VAC if he transitions through SISIP into VAC.

[Mélanie Witty]

One is an insurance company. We're a department. That's what I tell the members.

[Pierre Lemieux, Conservative, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Right, but from the veterans' point of view they're just interested in vocational training. They don't care whether it's insurance or whether it's Veterans Affairs. They're just saying, listen, I need a skill set because I was infantry for eight years or nine years or twelve years and I need a skill set so I can transition into a job. I don't care where it comes from. I don't care if it's insurance or VAC. I would like some vocational training. What I'm hearing from you is that there are actually two vocational options, one through SISIP early, one through VAC later. But he has options.

[Mélanie Witty]

But I must tell you, sir, that it is not uncommon for someone medically releasing, whose limitations are so severe that a return to school is not even on the table. We tell them they have the chance to hop out of school with SISIP. They will still get the earnings loss. But for SISIP to set them up in school can at times be setting them up for failure.

Two years down the road, when they'll be in a better place, their symptoms are better controlled, and their providers are in place, the treatment will show and the psychologist will confirm that they're ready for vocational assistance. It's reassuring for the member to know that he or she doesn't have to sign up for school the day after release. It's offered to him or her two years down the road.

[The Chair, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

Mr. Valeriote, you have the floor.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Doiron and Ms. Witty, for attending before this committee. I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Doiron yesterday and I appreciate that you have a huge task that you took on a year ago. I appreciate the efforts you are making and your candour yesterday.

Ms. Witty, you mentioned the rehab program. From my reading of the Auditor General's report, I understand the rehab program is quite different and only available to a limited number of people. The Auditor General identified about 15,300 people who applied over the last number of years for health benefits.

Is it accurate to say that the rehab program is a very small particular program and only affects about 1,000 veterans, as the Auditor General identified in his report yesterday at committee? Maybe Mr. Doiron would like to answer.

[Michel D. Doiron]

The rehab program affects more than 1,000 veterans. As Mélanie mentioned, the VAC rehab has three components. There's the vocational rehab which is the educational program. There's a psychosocial, and that's where we have to work to get somebody ready to get into a vocational rehab. Then there's the medical rehab. We do some and the military has a tendency to do medical rehab.

There are a lot more than 1,000 people in the entire rehab. Yesterday, the Auditor General was talking about mental health and rehab. I don't have the total number of people in rehab just off the top of my head. I can get it to you, though.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Could you?

[Michel D. Doiron]

Yes.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mélanie, is a case manager the same as a case worker?

[Mélanie Witty]

Yes.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

What's your workload?

[Mélanie Witty]

Right now, I have 180 members who are medically releasing, so we know they're in some type of category, a temporary, a permanent, or a message has been cut.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Are there case managers with more than 180 somewhere in Canada?

[Michel D. Doiron]

I want to clarify. Mélanie does the transition interview. She and two other case managers handle all the CF members—not veterans yet—in the greater Ottawa area. It's more than Ottawa and this area, right? Once they have transitioned out of the forces, they are transferred to a case manager wherever they are going to be retiring.

They handle a big caseload. They also do some case management. They do work with the military case managers, do the interviews, and help them with the medically releasing. There are case managers, but she's assigned to the IPSC. All the soldiers assigned to the IPSC work with Mélanie and her peers.

Once you have left the IPSC, or JPSU, if you're military, you go into....That's what we were talking about yesterday, the ratios. The average across Canada is 1 in 34. The target is 1 in 40.

We are concerned about that, I'll be honest, because our members....As I mentioned yesterday, and Mélanie touched on it earlier, the intensity and complexity of the work, because of mental issues, is much higher than it used to be.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Is there a plan to hire more case managers, then, to improve that ratio?

[Michel D. Doiron]

I did a review in the summer months. Presently, with the number of veterans we have, we have approximately the right number. The issue is that they're not at the right places.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Locations?

[Michel D. Doiron]

Locations. However, I'll be very honest. I did go out and put out a selection process. Some of you are very well aware. We posted for case managers and CSAs. The big issue is that if the forecast continues, we expect from now to 2020 an increase of about 30% in case-managed veterans. If that does occur, I do not have sufficient case managers. But a forecast is a forecast, right? So we're following it very closely.