Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2013

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'd appreciate it. I've been hearing noises from across the way from Mr. Hawn. He'll get an opportunity to ask the same questions. If he'd be just as courteous as to allow me to put my questions I'd greatly appreciate, Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

You have half a minute left.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

If a civilian and somebody in the military were to get hurt in the same situation, the same casualty, who, in your estimation or expert opinion, would receive better benefits—the civilian from WSIB or WCB or the person in the military?

[Judy Geary]

I couldn't make that comparison. I'm sorry.

What I can say is that the workers' compensation boards generally have a pretty comprehensive service available to people. It's not perfect and not every person who is covered under workers' compensation is happy with what they get, but generally it's pretty comprehensive. There's a history of almost 100 years of workers' compensation legislation in this country, which has been evolving pretty consistently over time to address new things, as we learn about them, as science improves, and as health care changes. They're pretty sophisticated operations, particularly for people with very serious injuries.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you very much, madam.

We now move on to Mr. Hayes, please, for five minutes.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This question is for Mr. Mustard or Judy. It doesn't really matter.

This is specific to WSIB and it might pick up on what Mr. Karygiannis was saying about comparisons between the new Veterans Charter and workers' compensation boards.

Have either of you reviewed the veterans ombudsmen's report from June, which actually spoke to that? Specifically he looked at Nova Scotia, Alberta, and British Columbia. He stated that Alberta and British Columbia WSIBs normally pay very well, and that the one in Nova Scotia somewhat less so. His conclusion was that “the Enhanced New Veterans Charter provides better compensation than provincial Workers' Compensation Boards”.

Would you agree with that? Are you familiar with his study?

[Dr. Cameron Mustard]

I apologize. I have been meaning to travel along with the ombudsman's work, but I just haven't had an opportunity to do so. I did spend some time on the weekend looking at an evaluation from Veterans Affairs Canada comparing scenarios under the previous regime and the new regime, the conversion to lump sum.

Although this is a very cursory impression, my sense was that the benefit amounts being provided under the new Veterans Charter for levels of impairment of 10%, 40%, and 80% were generally equivalent to the provincial workers' compensation schemes.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

In fact, as his report states, under the new Veterans Charter they're actually better. He did do a number of scenarios.

Do you have any comments, Judy?

[Judy Geary]

No, I'm not familiar with the report, though I remember reading about it in the press.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Mustard, I was reading your website and it states that recently you wrapped up a study that examined the ways in which disability income security programs are set up and administered. You say:

Disability income security programs in Canada are poorly coordinated, benefit amounts differ substantially between programs, and there appears to be significant inconsistencies in program coverage.

That being said, do you believe that veterans deserve better compensation, or do you think that amounts should not substantially differ across the board, that there should not be inconsistencies, and that there should be better coordination?

[Dr. Cameron Mustard]

For the last 10 years, we have been building a national portrait of disability income security benefit programs. This work would contain the numbers of beneficiaries in these programs, the benefit levels, and the services available. It's a very hard story to tell, because this country is quite unusual. I don't think we intended to do this, but we have created a disability income security framework that involves seven different payers. There is the federal CPP disability benefit, which is an entitlement benefit. We pay into it in order to draw from it. We have provincial social assistance programs that have a special designation for people who are unable to work because of their health. Those are administered at the provincial level and are not entitlement programs. They're universally available. We have provincial workers' compensation programs. We also have the Veterans Affairs disability benefit.

If you add it all up, it comes to about $25 billion a year of income security to working-age Canadians who can't work because of their health. That's twice the amount of benefits we pay out in employment insurance each year. It's a lot of money. An OECD study team came through Canada in 2008-09 and looked at disability income security programs. They also looked at the degree to which this country had in place programs and services to enable people with disabilities to attempt to re-enter work. It's not just about the income security; it's also about finding ways to support people's participation in work. Anyway, they were very startled. I recommend that report, by the way. I'll forward it to the staff. They were startled by how complex this country's disability income security schemes are, and they made a number of recommendations about how, at the margin, programs could try to be more coordinated, particularly from the viewpoint of the disabled individuals.

Now, I've wandered way off your question. Could you take me back to it?

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

No, I'm sure my time has probably gone. You actually didn't do a bad job. Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you, Mr. Hayes. A little leniency was given on that one.

Now on to Mr. Rafferty, from the beautiful city of Thunder Bay.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you in advance for the leniency on this one, too. We'll see what happens.

Thank you both for being here.

Ms. Geary, I very much like what you have written here. I think it's very thoughtful and important. You talk about reintegration to work, and a little bit before that you talk about vocational training. One of the things that I see lacking when people come into my office, people who are concerned about things, particularly for provincial programs, but also for federal programs, is the inability to access formal education—in other words, degree-granting, diploma-granting, and that sort of thing. I wonder if that's an avenue that hasn't been explored. Or is it perhaps too hard to manage? I don't know. Could you make some comments on that part of reintegration of those who are disabled.

[Judy Geary]

Most disability support service providers would focus first on helping the person to get back to work using the transferable skills and knowledge they already have. The reason for that is my earlier comment about the longer a person is off work the less likely it is they will go back to work.

I spent a lot of my career at the Workplace Safety and Insurance Board dealing with workers who did go back to school. What we discovered was that it's not easy for people to go back to school if they've been in the workforce and not in an academic environment for 20 or 30 years. It's very difficult. It's a very steep learning curve, so it is sometimes more practical to help the person to find work that doesn't require that they undergo formal academic education programs. That said, there are some people who need those and who cannot find decent work without upgrading their education.

We all know that the educational requirements, even for what we perceive to be not particularly academically challenging positions, are going up. So people need high school degrees, they need college diplomas to access the labour market and to compete with young people who have those kinds of qualifications.

My view is that there is a population of people who need to have access to those types of programs.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

It seems to me that we don't see that as an option presented that often for people who feel that that's the direction they need to go in. I only know the Ontario college system, and it is very good at integrating people and upgrading people, not so much universities but, certainly, the colleges.

[Judy Geary]

Right. Yes, they are.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

My second question also deals with resources.

In the model that you presented, people are central, face-to-face, that sort of thing. This means that trained professionals are needed to deal with intervention and integration and case management and health care and so on.

It seems to me that this part of the puzzle is still not as robust as it should be. In the model that you present, if everything's in place I can see that the model could work very well. But I don't know if the model does work well. Would you like to make a comment on that?

[Judy Geary]

In the study that Cameron mentioned earlier, the OECD study, it was actually a multi-year project looking at 22 countries and how they provide disability benefit services and programs.

It came out with a very strong recommendation in its final report that the people who are dealing with disabled people need to be professional. They need to have training. They need to have qualifications. They can't be going out and mucking around--excuse my language--in people's lives without knowing what they're doing.

Of course, health care people do have qualifications, but case managers, vocational rehabilitation people, return-to-work or disability management people, human resource people, they don't necessarily have it. They may have a qualification in something else, or they may have a very excellent education, but if they haven't been specifically trained on how to assess and analyze and deal with the needs of people with disabilities, and how to work with them and their employers, then they can cause damage.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

It seems to me that that sort of educational opportunity would be perfect for training people who are actually entering into this sort of scheme.

My time is probably close to over. So I wonder if you could quickly comment on whether or not you think that would be something that should be pushed and could be pushed to help fill that resource gap?

[Judy Geary]

Is your comment that perhaps some of the disabled veterans could fulfill roles serving other disabled veterans? Yes, there's no reason why that couldn't happen if they have the other qualifications that are needed to do that.

Certainly, they would be empathetic and understanding, which is critical to good client-centred service.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you.

It would take the powers that be to make that effort, to make that happen.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the extra bit of time.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

We'll now move on to Mr. Hawn, please, for five minutes.