Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2013

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lobb.

I'll now go to myself for four minutes, with a few questions here.

Mr. Chisu brought it up as well, but in your paper you also talked about opportunities for work accommodations. I spent many years in the oil industry, where we had a duty to accommodate, simple things like putting in belt levers so the agent didn't have to carry the bag. The bag was on there, and that saved a lot of people's backs. It ended up saving the company a lot of money on short-term and long-term disability payments for pain and suffering of the arm, the shoulder, and the back. But in the military, there is no duty to accommodate in that regard. Mr. Chisu's right. If you don't meet the universality, you're more or less gone. We now have on average 200 young men and women who leave the military prematurely due to injury, and this is before they get their tenure in. And that tenure is very vital for their future benefits.

That's one of our concerns. The RCMP have that, but the military does not. But that's not my question.

My question for you is, when you did your study on the work placement, you indicated how important it was to have work that was valuable and was meaningful so, as I always say, you go home tired but you've had a good day. Did you do a comparison between men and women? You didn't break that down in your study. I'd like to know what the comparisons were for men and women who had served, and who had been released for whatever reason, and what the attitude of the change was that they effected. Was it different for men than it was for women? Or was it the same?

[Judy Geary]

I don't know about the armed forces, but in general there are some differences in how women respond to unemployment or disability as opposed to men. Cameron may be able to speak a little more specifically about it, but there are some differences that would be expected. But there are also differences based on marital status, based on age, and based on the industry that you come from. I'm not aware of any work that's been done on veterans who've been discharged and how their lives may be different following discharge.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Okay.

I have another question for you. It is one thing to place the individual into a workplace, but if that workplace does not have any understanding of what triggers post-traumatic stress disorder, or OSIs, or anything of that nature, that person may have gone through the training to get the job, they get in there and the workplace environment ends up not being conducive to that individual, they then start from basically ground zero again.

What recommendations would you make for us that we could recommend to the government? When individuals are being released from the military and they have either PTSD, OSI, or a physical injury, or a combination of those, and when they're being transitioned to another work environment, what training should that other work environment have—from the management to the employees—to fully understand what may set off triggers for this individual, or what kind of concerns the individual may be going through as they adjust to the work environment, as Mr. Lobb said?

[Dr. Cameron Mustard]

That's a great question. I don't have an answer.

I do have an observation that goes something like this: over about the last 20 years we've become, as a society, quite comfortable and capable of accommodating impairments that are of a physical nature—a musculoskeletal impairment—and how to aid somebody who has just returned to work, before they've fully recovered from the musculoskeletal condition. We know how to do that pretty well.

The burden of work disability now in this country that is a real challenge is mental health disorders. If we can, how do we prevent it from happening in the first place? But to your example, where somebody has a diagnosis, how do we get them back to work? It's not only the case you spoke to of PTSD and integration into the workforce. I think in the case of depression, anxiety disorders, employers across this country are really looking for help in terms of how to do this.

It's a great question. I don't have an answer.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you.

That was exactly four minutes. I can't extend my time, but—

[Judy Geary]

There are some organizations that are getting experience and are getting fairly good at this-- police forces, first responders, transit commissions. They are dealing with PTSD among their own employees and they are learning how to accommodate, and it's all about the triggers. If you have a veteran who's going to work with a new employer, first of all they don't have a legal obligation to say that they have a disability. They do need to say if they need an accommodation of some kind. I would think that if it's a sophisticated employer with a good corporate health function, they would be able to figure out with their new employee what needs to be avoided, and what needs to be put in place to ensure that the post-traumatic stress is not triggered and the person is—as you said—back at square one. It warrants a lot of conversation, because the individual knows what's best for them, and they know generally what they need and what they need to avoid. So it's dialogue.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.

Mr. Lizon, please, for four minutes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, witnesses. Thank you for coming to this committee.

I want to ask two questions, and I will ask them first because we will probably run out of time. And if we run out of time, then maybe I will ask the witnesses to answer to the clerk via email.

The first one is to Judy.

Can you tell us how people presently access the information and services at WSIB? I know if you look at the website, there's a mobile application for services. How popular are the new ways of accessing the information and getting services, in comparison to the traditional way where people used to come in the office to see someone who serves them, or phoned?

Mr. Mustard, in your study on mortality following unemployment in Canada, you concluded, “unemployed men and women [in this cohort] had an elevated risk of mortality for accidents and violence, as well as for chronic diseases”.

Could you further explain to the committee how you came to these conclusions? Also, do you believe this could impact the vulnerable group, such as seriously injured veterans?

[Judy Geary]

In terms of accessing services, workers generally are approached by the workers' compensation boards themselves, and the phone is a primary means of communication. Electronic communication is a little more problematic because there are privacy and confidentiality issues. If an injured worker sends an email to a big organization that has 3,000 people, it can very easily go astray or be seen by people who don't have a right to see it. There's a lot of consideration given to protecting privacy and confidentiality of clients.

The phone is definitely used extensively. It is a very powerful tool if it's used properly and in a caring way, and with people asking good questions and listening well.

When things get complicated or complex, it's very important to have a face-to-face meeting. Nothing replaces it. When there's a dispute, an issue of not believing each other, or trust issues start to creep into the relationship between the client and the organization, and when signs are showing that the worker doesn't trust their management in the workplace, nothing replaces a face-to face-meeting. That gives everybody an opportunity to put their opinions on the table and to solve the problem.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

If they wish to have time, Mr. Chair, could you maybe—?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

They can just keep talking.

[Dr. Cameron Mustard]

Thank you.

You were referencing some work that we reported recently which, to summarize for the members of the committee, followed a group of Canadians forward from 1991. This is a group of Canadians who on census day in 1991 reported that they were unemployed.

We followed them forward for 10 years and compared their mortality experience to those Canadians who were employed on census day 1991. Across literally all causes of death, the mortality rates among the unemployed Canadians over 10 years were higher than among the employed Canadians.

Your questions was, could this adverse experience pertain to seriously injured veterans? I think so, yes.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mustard.

We will now move on to our final round of questioning.

Mr. Karygiannis, for four minutes, please.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for coming and enlightening us on some of the concerns we have.

There is a new bill the minister has put in place, and it's Bill C-11, which gives priority to the military veterans to get jobs within the public sector.

A lot of people are being laid off, there are a lot of cutbacks, so we need to see how real that is. However, a military veteran who is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder or other ailments....

In the military we teach one skill—defend your country, be prepared to stand for it—and that's one skill that we teach and there are other skills that certainly follow it. But a lot of the military personnel might need retraining. If there is no retraining available, for a lot of them, when they get to that job, it will be a flop, a failure, or they will not be able to engage. In order for somebody to get the job they must be retrained. Should we also bring in a caveat that says that if money is needed to retrain that person, that should be the case?

A lot of people who are injured, a lot of people who need to move into another job, need to have some sort of retraining package. Would that make fair sense and be a fair comment from my side?

[Judy Geary]

I would suggest that if an armed forces person is being transferred to a civilian role in some other area of the public service, there needs to be a very carefully thought-out plan developed with the employee and their new management that articulates very clearly to everybody what type of training, accommodation, or on-the-job training or off-the-job training and education is required to make that person successful.

You can rarely take somebody in any job, if it's a significant role change, and have them show up at work and be 100% capable or competent in that job. People need some kind of orientation, they need training that can be provided on the job or, if necessary, in some kind of classroom training or something else.

There is no one answer. It needs to be an individualized plan about what is going to make that return to work successful for that person and for their new manager as well.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How much time do I have, Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

You have one minute and two seconds.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

If a person is not trained and no training is provided for them, you have a person who is a military individual from the field, combat, peacekeeping, or whatever it is, and there is absolutely no training in order for them to liaise and become a civil servant, what would be the success of that individual staying in that job? Would it be 20%, 30%, 40%, or 50%, as a guesstimate from your breadth of knowledge?

If someone is a military personnel, a corporal, they're in the field, they carry military equipment and they do their work. They might know how to fix things and then all of a sudden the federal government says, “You're out of there and we're going to give you a job within the civilian sector”. If they are given no retraining, no money is given to them for training, what is the success rate of that person staying in that job? What is your best guesstimate?

[Judy Geary]

I have no information about what the sustainability rate for employment in that circumstance would be. Sometimes it takes years for these things to be clear.

But I would just reiterate that—

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

No training, you can't stay on....

[Judy Geary]

Well, maybe they need training, maybe they don't need training. Yes, they have been fulfilling a role, but before that they were something else. People have more skills than just what they're doing in their specific job today, which may be applicable in whatever other job is given to them.

[Dr. Cameron Mustard]

I would just make an observation, just to line up with something that Judy just spoke to.

The way the Canadian labour market has changed over the last 20 or 30 years is making it clearer and clearer—as I think of this as a parent of a couple of women who are in their twenties—that we're not going to have one job in our lifetime. Many of us are going to have two, three, four, or five.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I know my time is up.

But if you're coming out of the military and you're given a priority to have a civil service job, and you're hurt and all that stuff, you'll need training.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Mr. Karygiannis, your time is up.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Is that a yes, Mr. Mustard?