Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 28th, 2013

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let me first thank our witnesses for being here.

I want to thank you also for the wonderful work you've done in terms of preparing this report. I'm sure it took a fair bit of time for you and your staff. This is going to be very good in assisting us in our review and the study that we're conducting. I want to thank all of you.

As noted in your report, a 24-year-old corporal who is medically released will receive $2 million over his or her life until the age of 65. I guess we see that in the chart here as well.

Can you confirm that statement to be accurate?

[Guy Parent]

Yes, of course.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Perfect.

Also in your report, you note that the lump sum is a small percentage of the overall financial benefit available under the new Veterans Charter. Can you indicate for us what percentage the lump sum is of the total financial benefit for a veteran?

[Col Denys Guérin]

It really depends on the amount of lump sum that the individual receives. Most veterans have a disability level less than 30%, so the lump sum they receive can be fairly small. There are others who are much more severely disabled who receive a higher lump sum. It really depends on what scenario you're talking about, which veteran you're talking about, what disability level they have, etc., and what other benefits they also have.

I'm not sure I can give you one number here that can actually answer that question.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Are you able to give me an average of what the lump sum is?

[Col Denys Guérin]

No, I can't give you an average because it very much depends. There are a lot of veterans who are receiving lump sums, and they can range from $5,000 or $10,000 to $298,000. It really depends on what their disability level is. It's not something that we've looked at.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

You just mentioned that it could be less than 30%. Can you give me that scenario? Can you say under what scenario it would be 30% or less?

[Col Denys Guérin]

Somebody who is in the Canadian Forces and who suffers a 5% hearing loss because of the fact that they're on flight lines, they're near big guns, or whatever, in those cases the individual would have a 5% or 10% hearing loss. The individual could probably still very much continue to serve in the Canadian Forces, but that's an example of the lower-end type of disability and lump sum.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

In terms of total benefits that are handed out, what percentage would you say overall is the lump sum amount that's handed out to veterans? Do you have that number?

[Col Denys Guérin]

Again, we're comparing lump sums of fixed amount here with other benefits that are paid monthly, some up to age 65, some for the life of the veteran, depending on the allowance here. Trying to determine what the percentage is of a fixed amount over the life, which is paid monthly, we haven't done that calculation.

[Guy Parent]

I think what's important to realize here is the fact that the very reason we separated the economic benefits from non-economic benefits was to make sure that this amount that is allocated for pain and suffering, which is the lump-sum award, should not be taken into consideration for future earnings or ability to generate wealth. It is strictly for pain and suffering, and this is why we took it apart from the economic benefits.

In the same example that was used here, for instance, a gentleman who suffers from hearing loss at a fairly low percentage might get 20% of the $286,000 for pain and suffering. However, the fact that he is now a client of Veterans Affairs Canada gives him access to all of the other programs that are associated with that, such as the vocational rehabilitation program. While he's doing that, receiving earnings loss, there's also possibly some access to other programs. I think that's the important thing.

We didn't want to touch the pain and suffering because it's a different discussion that needs to take place in another arena. It's no different for families losing family members, whether you're in the military or not. It's something that needs to be discussed in a different arena. That's why we went that way for that.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I understand. I guess every scenario is different. Let me give you an example of what I'm trying to get at.

If Veterans Affairs hypothetically—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Please be quick.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

If Veterans Affairs, let's say, hands out $100 in benefits, what percentage of that $100 may be handed out as a lump-sum payment to veterans? Are you able to give me an idea of that?

[Gary Walbourne, Executive Director of Operations, Deputy Ombudsman, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman]

We can look into the math. This is simply getting it from the DPR of the department and doing that math for you. We can get back to you with the answer, if you'd like.

[Parm Gill, Conservative, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Can you get that answer for the committee, please?

[Gary Walbourne]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you.

Now we move to Mr. Karygiannis.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, and my thanks to everyone for coming and bringing all the work that you've done to date.

I'd like to read a statement that I got this morning from a veteran. His name is Bruce Granger. This is in regard to the two individuals whom we just lost.

It goes something like this, and I want your comments on this:

Add two to the NVA score. Treat the mind and the body, help the family, get him balanced then release if necessary. Retrain then employ or long-term pension if no chance of employment. PTSD does not work well when people are certain of tomorrow. If you use any other formula, buy body bags and coffins. Children of suicides have a higher rate of suicide and mental problems. The NVA is not a veterans' issue, it is multi-generational and has a more a far-reaching effect than you think.

One veteran reported that he was uncertain of his tomorrow. He was uncertain if he was going to get out, if he was going to be able to get a job. PTSD is slow-creeping. You're not sure if you have it. If you do and you get rid of it, it can come back years later.

I'm just wondering if you want to make any comments on how we can change the NVA. There are some good parts to it, and there are some things that need changing in view of Bruce Granger's comments.

[Guy Parent]

First of all, I'd like to offer our heartfelt thoughts and prayers to the families of those deceased soldiers.

Obviously, it's a very important issue. I think the reason we're here today, and the reason we published this report, is to help people have hope that there is something once they transition from the forces.

A lot of our reports have said that some of the biggest problems we face have to do with transition. Of course, transition is the responsibility of two departments, National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada. There need to be some improvements so that people who are entering a transition phase can see beyond their release and have some hope that there are opportunities coming up.

Right now, with some of the challenges they're facing, and sometimes the lack of communication, people are not sure what's on the other side. I believe it would proactively help with some of those situations if, from the time that people are told they may be getting out of the forces, they could have some hope that they will be treated well.

I note that one of these individuals was a reservist. Not that long ago we published a report to provide identification cards for reservists and regular force members that would give them a status immediately. This way, when they leave the forces, they become veterans of Canada and are recognized as such. With that, there would be an ability to track them, to find out where they are and how they're doing.

If we can fix some of the things in the new Veterans Charter, we can help people in the future.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

In the United States, some figures of military suicides are as high as 22 a day. I can't substantiate that, but there were 349 suicides in 2012: army, 182; marine corps, 48; navy, 60; and air force, 59. In Canada, we don't have such stats, but there are 50 unresolved deaths of military personnel.

I'm wondering if you can give us any insight into how we go about preventing our military people from taking their lives. What support do we need, besides the monetary support? At Canadian Forces Base Shilo, we get reports that there is probably one part-time psychiatrist who goes there. Have you looked at that? What should we do to support the families so we have no more soldiers dying? Two soldiers who take their lives are two too many. We have to step up to the plate. Have you considered that?

[Guy Parent]

I have a point of clarification, Mr. Chair.

The fact is that there is a military ombudsman who actually looks after people while they are serving, and although we have sometimes dual jurisdiction, anything that happens to a soldier before he's actually released is the responsibility of National Defence. Certainly, these questions should go to the ombudsman for the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces.

As far as we're concerned for veterans, obviously we're concerned with OSI and PTSD. We have been asking the department to actually come up with a good national strategy on how you actually deal with mental health, and PTSD, and OSI. We certainly monitor that aspect of it.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Do you know how many soldiers have committed suicide after they've been released? Do you have any figures on that?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Mr. Karygiannis, unfortunately your time is up, sir. You may be able to ask that in the second round.

We now move on to Mr. Hawn please, for five minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have a number of questions, so I'd like fairly brisk answers if you could.

You may not be able to answer this specifically, but is it not true that the suicide rate among serving members of the military reflects the suicide rate in society in general?