Veterans Affairs Committee on May 10th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everybody. I want to apologize for the late start. It was beyond the committee's control today.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Thursday, February 25, 2016, the committee resumes its study of service delivery to veterans.

Today we have two witnesses, one in person, Ms. Jenny Migneault; and one by video conference from Saskatchewan, Ms. Carla Murray. Each person will be given up to 10 minutes to make an opening statement.

We'll start with you, Ms. Murray. Thank you for your patience in waiting, and I apologize on behalf of the committee.

[Carla Murray, As an Individual]

That's fine. Thank you.

Shall I start?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Yes, go ahead.

[Carla Murray]

Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak to you today, and a special thanks to Dr. Kitchen and Ms. Wagantall for restoring my faith in the political system, at least a little bit.

Veterans Affairs Canada: that name strikes fear and anger into many, many injured veterans and families. The only thing that is consistent about Veterans Affairs is how consistently broken it is in so many areas. As you have heard from veterans in past meetings, they are unhappy, desperate, and abandoned—yes, abandoned. There are so many basic structural flaws in the system that picking a starting point has taken most of my sleep since I have been asked to appear.

How can you run a multi-million dollar department with nothing written down on what success is? What are the goals? Where is the data? Even the suicide data is flawed. If you owned a business or a corporation, you would never operate without a set goal in mind. Really, they're just flailing around in the dirt, because there is no set plan and nothing written down on what a successful veteran looks like two or three years after release.

Veterans feel like criminals before they even start. The burden of proof needs to be on VAC, not on the injured vet. They're not capable. These are disabled and hurting vets. They're going through all kinds of trauma, and the last thing they need is to be treated like a criminal and have to do research. It's horrific. In the U.S., their burden of proof is on the department, not on the veteran.

When did Veterans Affairs Canada stop filling in the paperwork for the veteran? This will show you how basic the structural flaws are at VAC. Many people with post-traumatic stress disorder are not capable of filling out paperwork. They see the blanks on the forms and they see it all at once. They can't pick out one blank and answer it and then the next blank. They see it all at once.

This was told to me by a psychiatrist and proven to me when my husband—a helicopter mechanic with 23 years, 223 days—couldn't fix a pedal bike for about the first four years after release. He just didn't have the cognitive power. But they have to fill out the paperwork to access the help, and that is just a huge obstacle.

One has to ask how the very department that's taking care of veterans with PTSD doesn't realize that veterans have a problem with this paperwork and those forms. These are the people who are supposed to be responsible for it. They're supposed to know this stuff.

The problem with Veterans Affairs is that it's been broken for many years. My dad was a World War II vet, and he looked my husband in the eye and said, “In the eyes of the government, the only good vet is a dead vet.” So now you know: it isn't only the new veterans telling you that it's broken. Poor treatment of veterans isn't new, nor is it unique to Canada, but it still isn't right. It has to stop.

The men and women of our military take great pride in their career and are willing to sacrifice their lives for the protection of our freedoms and our way of life. They do this with full gusto, believing right to their core that the government has their backs and their families' backs if they are injured. It's quite the shock when they realize that isn't the case. They're not adequately providing support and help to the injured veterans, and these veterans have to claw, fight, and beg for any benefit they may receive, or Veterans Affairs offloads the entire burden on the caregiver. It's unbelievable the burden that is, as Jenny will probably tell you too.

Dealing with VAC is a trigger for me; it's a trigger for my husband; and I bet it's a trigger for Jenny and her husband too. The very fact that the caregiver is given no support or education like wound care, surgical packing, or proper lifting techniques—now you're starting to give it, but it's much too late.

I see that you've had quite the journey. I've been watching some of the past meetings. I think you realize just how desperate veterans are and that things aren't quite hunky-dory. When you hear from the witnesses, particularly from the powers that be, I think you need to realize that sometimes the figures and quotes are somewhat sanitized, and you need to do the digging to find out what the real truth of the matter is.

I loved it that some of you guys went and tried to do some of the forms, or tried to access the VAC website. In the rural area, we cannot access the VAC website. We cannot access the Blue Cross website. The Legions are no good to us. Yet, every time I hear your meetings, you're talking about how wonderful the Legion is and what a help they are, or how these websites are wonderful. Well, if we can't access it, it's not much good.

The unfortunate truth is that we have absolutely no more time for study, committees, re-evaluation, and consultation. In Saskatchewan, times are beyond desperate. They're desperate. We have no psychiatrists for our veterans.

We were blessed with two of the top doctors in their fields, psychiatrist Dr. Greg Passey and psychologist Dr. Susan Brock, and now they're gone. Both doctors tried so hard to find replacements, but mental health professionals are so few and far between, and they understand the administrative burden that VAC puts on them, and they know how tough it is to deal with veterans with PTSD.

We don't have a psychiatrist for veterans in Saskatchewan. We haven't had one since November, so some of these veterans have missed five to ten sessions, and we all know a veteran who's one or two sessions away from a crisis. We need help here. I've phoned the federal government, I've phoned the provincial government, and I've phoned the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons. The federal government blames the provincial government, and the provincial government blames the federal government. Meanwhile, the veterans here are desperate.

Please, can you do something? Set up an OSI clinic or something here. You've set up these beautiful centres in places that already have practitioners. Why wouldn't you set one up where we have none? You would answer all our prayers. We have, what, two bases here? We have RCMP training, and that would be a lot.... Also, there are all the RCMP people who serve in Saskatchewan. T.C. Douglas would be rolling in his grave if he knew what health care and mental health care are like in his beloved province of Saskatchewan.

The other problem with getting practitioners in Saskatchewan is that the government tends to pay about two-thirds of what the rest of the country pays, so it's not like our Saskatchewan weather is going to make them come here. We need to at least be on a fair and level playing field, and VAC insists on paying provincial rates. I think that needs to be studied and looked at, because once again we are sitting here with no practitioners.

I have another couple of comments that I'd really like to get in.

A lot of veterans have been losing programs and benefits. The sad part is that not one veteran who has lost a program can understand why. I believe that if you're going to do something as devastating as removing the ELB or the rehab program, you need to have a face-to-face with that veteran and his family so he understands why you're taking away his benefits. Every single one of these people who have complained about losing benefits still to this day does not understand why they cut the benefit. I understand that there's a two-letter process and it's 60 days, but if they don't hear from them, they just cut them off. We need more face-to-face contact with Veterans Affairs.

Veterans Affairs has been setting up to be more distant. When you walk into a Veterans Affairs office, it's a horrible feeling. It's not welcoming. It's closed. It's almost a lockdown on the doors. Nobody feels like going into Veterans Affairs, because the whole environment doesn't feel very welcoming.

We need more one-on-one direct contact with veterans. You could go into their homes like you used to do; I don't know if you still do. You need to be able to see what environment they're in and what kind of state the family is in. They're probably not going to tell you until they start trusting you, and unfortunately there just isn't much VAC credibility with veterans. The flaws are so structural that I almost wonder if it's worth throwing all these good ideas and good money after bad. Maybe they should be blown up and started from scratch, and maybe we should even change the name, because “VAC” is such a trigger for everybody.

This is major work that needs to be done. I imagine that it's a huge job you're looking at, but please listen to the veterans and the caregivers. The caregivers are doing the bulk of the work and getting no resources. I'm sorry, but $7,000 a year does not replace a $60,000-a-year career. If my husband dies before me, do I have to live in poverty? All my best earning years are gone because I'm at home taking care of my husband, and gladly so, because he's much healthier for it.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have another minute.

[Carla Murray]

The other thing is pot. I'm sorry, but there's a reason why the cost of pot and the number of veterans is increasing. It's really simple: it works.

The reason more veterans are using it is that veterans talk. It works. My husband was on 31 pills a day. That's 900 pills a month. He is off 600 pills now and is trying to get off another 180, and that is directly caused by using marijuana properly and medically. Please, you need to not screw this up. It is saving a lot of lives. I mean, work with us, educate us, help us with this, help us with access, and help us learn how to use it properly, but please don't restrict our access. I watched it work for my husband. It's a miracle.

That's really all I can touch on now. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Great. Thank you. We'll come back for some questions after the next witness.

Jenny, you have the floor. Thank you for coming today.

[Jenny Migneault, As an Individual]

Thank you so much.

I have to tell you, Mr. Chair, that I forgot my notes once again. It's the story of my life. I will count on you to let me know when my time is up, because I have so much to tell you all.

First of all, thank you very much. You may remember me as the vet's spouse who ran after Mr. Fantino two years ago, in fact 23 months ago, not even two years. Here I am as a result of the system.

Very briefly, I'd like you to please acknowledge the fact that my ex-husband is sitting here. He's the one who has allowed me for the past two years to talk so openly about our challenges whether they are social, work-related, or sex-life related. Please ask me about the challenges; ask me anything you want to know about, but please, most of all, know that this man gave me the permission to talk openly.

Second of all, now as his separated wife, I am homeless, and because of him I can eat during the month. It's not the case for all women, for all spouses, for all caregivers, or even for all veterans when they end a relationship. I want you to acknowledge that most of the time, one of them becomes very vulnerable. I am it.

I ran after Mr. Fantino 23 months ago. A year ago I testified before the same committee, right here, where I expressed the fact that the caregiver relief benefit didn't make sense at all. In June 2015 I expressed the same thing before the Senate subcommittee, the fact that the caregiver relief benefit didn't make sense. Here I am, in May 2016, and I am now homeless.

I want to make sure you understand that it's the advocacy that killed me. Three things would have saved our marriage. The first one is everything related to the help and support that was promised to my husband. How can a man who spent 5,000 hours in a CC-130 Hercules...?

I'm sorry, but I will switch to French from English, because I'm exhausted. I hope you're ready.

My ex-husband has 5,000 flight hours to his credit. In 2007, Veterans Affairs Canada acknowledged that his tinnitus could be related to his military service. Two years later, Veterans Affairs Canada gave him hearing aids that were not covered under his pension, and there is nothing about this in his file.

For eight years, my former husband has fought to get recognition that his deafness is also related to his service. If the tinnitus is recognized, why is the deafness not? I do not understand it. The problem is that my ex-husband suffers not only from tinnitus, but also from deafness. The tinnitus maskers also mask his deafness. He cannot hear anything. Veterans Affairs Canada has to acknowledge the fact that his deafness is also associated with his service. That way, he can get care and devices that will improve his quality of life. This brings me to the quality of life issue. As long as this man is suffering, I am going to support him, as a family member.

If medical cannabis had been available before, that is the second thing that could have saved our marriage.

Medical cannabis, as Carla just mentioned, would have saved our marriage. Do you know why? All the pills he was taking—for sleeping, or to give him energy, or to wake him up, or to calm him down before we would attend family meetings—made him completely numb all the time. Do you know what it did? It prevented him from having positive social experiences. Don't forget that PTSD is a process. It's all about maturity.

Now, here's the thing. The third thing that would have saved my marriage is if this country would have recognized the service that I myself gave to my country. This is exactly why I want to talk to you today. I have so much to tell you, but I have one mission today, and that is to tell you that the battle about families is all about identity and dignity. Let me tell you what it's like.

The identity part is all about the core of the policies where I'm not recognized. Do you understand what that means? As much as for the Canadian Armed Forces as with Veterans Affairs Canada, if my husband cannot access services only because I'm there.... Remember, I had four kids at home, a full-time job, a big house to run, and I was told by a case manager that my husband couldn't have VIP service. Do you know why? Because I was there. “You can do it, Madam Migneault:” that's exactly what I was told.

This is the identity part: you have to recognize me in those policies. The dignity is about quality of life, and it has three aspects: support, education, and recognition.

The support is really all that comes with me, my own background. I would like to remind you that if I had been a military spouse, I would have come from the JPSU. If you're a serving member and you need services, chances are, if you have a wife, you won't get those services.

Do you want to know what the impacts are on my life as a caregiver? Just think about it. The burden is on me. No matter what, I have to deal with the situation, and I come with my own baggage. I need support to teach me how to protect myself from the collateral damage. I am that collateral damage, as we speak.

I need education to know how to support my husband, to help him, to be the ally who will make him want to get better. This is the input I can bring. Most people think about education as having to do with the therapeutic side of things. I do agree. But do you know what? For years I'm the one who gave my husband a massage. He has a cracked backbone. He would rather receive a massage from his wife than from a stranger, and he felt like I was doing a better job. Well, this is probably true, but if I had been trained to massage him correctly, more efficiently, I would have lost less energy in trying to help him. That's the point—I need education.

I cannot talk on behalf of everybody. My purpose is really to bring the voices from down to up. I cannot tell you what education should be. If you ask me, knowing that many live with, for instance, domestic violence, I would be the one promoting the teaching of self-defence, if needed. Education can be that large. It also means we have to deal with the reality, the reality of the ugliness of the darkness.

Then there's recognition. Let's be honest, we're talking about money. The more you want to help me through my husband, I'd like to remind you that the more you are making me dependent on him. That's the point. The recognition is really about the money. First of all, I had to quit my job in order to stay with my husband eight years ago. Eight years ago I was 35 years old, and I'd like to remind you that I testified, in November 2007, before this same committee. Read it. I was 35 years old, and we had three children at home back then. You'll see who I was and see who I am today.

I cannot work 40 hours a week now. I am transitioning. Understand me: I became a military spouse myself, living 24 hours a day with someone with PTSD. If you don't still believe that transfer PTSD is a reality, come back to earth. Now, the family needs an independent voice. Do you know why? Because in a marriage, my needs are not the same as my husband's. Give me an independent voice, acknowledge where I am, my needs, and let's work on an action plan.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You still have one minute.

[Jenny Migneault]

Let's work on an action plan. I believe this is doable. Right now there is nothing for spouses like me—nothing. I am told to go back to civilian resources. Where are they?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Kitchen.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

Thank you very much to both of you for being here today, and for bearing with us as we get through this. Thank you for your talks and your information, which have been very much helpful.

I have a whole bunch of questions. We're trying to fill in some gaps as quickly as we can.

My first question deals with something that both of you expressed, and that's spouses who've given up their careers. The reality is that you both have given up your careers in order to care for your husband, in order to be caregivers. I'm wondering if you could just quickly give some suggestions on what your needs for support would be. We heard a couple of them today.

Oftentimes I don't think people think about the issue that when we're dealing with PTSD, sometimes situations happen where things become violent. How do you defend yourself? How do you protect yourself? What resources do you have in your communities? One in Saskatchewan, one in Ontario or Quebec; we don't know, because they've changed.

Do you have suggestions maybe about supplies? I think we heard a bit about education. You mentioned it a little bit as well. Could you quickly give us a bit more information on that?

I'll start with Carla.

[Carla Murray]

Hi, Robert. Thank you.

In terms of education, it's things like mental health first aid, which even all VAC employees have, wound care, and proper lifting techniques. It's really obvious stuff, Robert.

Dealing with PTSD, I wish I knew back then what I know now. Life would have gone so much easier. It's simple things, like the fact that someone with PTSD has trouble filling out forms. If they'd told me that at the beginning, think of how many fewer domestics I'd have had. I mean, I was getting so frustrated trying to get him to fill out the forms. It was integral understanding that he couldn't, and I'm amazed that VAC hasn't figured that out yet.

I had VAC make a special phone call to me, to tell me that since my husband was no longer going to be seeing Dr. Brock, I could no longer go to the office. They would not pay for the travel. I said, “Yes, I realize it's only my husband who counts for you.” Every person who's taking care of a person with PTSD should have regular psychological appointments. You need to come from a place of stability.

The two best things are these. First, you need to talk to your veteran's psychiatrist. There are two pills. I'm not making a prescription recommendation, but they work: clonazepam and propranolol. If your husband's having a psychotic episode, you need to know that and have them handy. You also need to have an escape plan, for both you and your kids, that your veteran will never guess. This is just survival. This is just pure, simple survival of a veteran's caregiver.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

Jenny.

[Jenny Migneault]

Acknowledge the reality, okay? If someone arrives with a diagnosis, could you all just take it for granted that you already have someone impacted? The whole family is already impacted.

We need a package the moment they have the diagnosis. In my case, I don't see why I had to wait five months in order to receive permission from Veterans Affairs Canada to see a psychologist. We should have a package to begin with. You have a diagnosis? Go. Have the family, including the children and spouse, go to a psychologist. That would be a great start.

I would also be a strong promoter of having some kind of education where you train me and where you pay me. Compensate me. The moment I stay at home, I become dependent. You know what? I have a husband who wants me to stay at home. I should have a choice, but he wants me to stay at home. He tells me, “We can manage it financially. Stay with me. You will be all right.” This is what he wants, and this is what he's promising me. It's the same thing that Veterans Affairs is promising him, to take care of him. The problem is that the system doesn't take care of him. He cannot take care of me properly to begin with.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It's crossed my mind a couple of times that when we're talking about families, and we're seeing unfortunate situations where there are breakups, what are we left with in terms of the families? I'm talking not only about spouses but about children. Oftentimes the children who watch what might go on in their homes will feel stress from it as they grow up, and later might run away from home or whatever the situation may be. How do we deal with that?

Perhaps you wouldn't mind commenting on that, Jenny first.

[Jenny Migneault]

Prevention.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

Carla?

[Carla Murray]

Can you remind me of the question, please?

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

We are talking about dealing with families and children and—

[Carla Murray]

Oh, yes, children; thank you, and thank you for bringing that up.

It's one of my pet worries, children of divorced parents. When a serving member and their spouse divorce, the serving member has to sign off on the child's psychological visits. I think they get a regular 20 or something, but some of these children are really damaged, and they need their own number. They need their own relationship with Veterans Affairs. That damage isn't going to stop with the divorce; that damage that the child is suffering after the fact will go on the rest of his life. DND should be directly responsible for that, and that should be taken care of.

Even divorced women, from dealing with PTSD.... I mean, look at Jenny and me; we're broken...or maybe not broken, but there's no doubt we're changed individuals.

But yes, children need their own number.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Fraser, you have six minutes.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

To both Ms. Migneault and Ms. Murray, I want to thank you very much for your appearance here today and for your evidence, which we are going to take very seriously. We hear you.

I also want to say thank you for your service to our country, because it is important to recognize—as you, Ms. Migneault, said in particular—that you have served our country too. We need to recognize that.

I would like to turn to you, Ms. Migneault, for a moment. You mentioned, with regard to family support, that it makes sense for you to have an independent voice, for your voice to be heard. I take it that you mean looking, in a holistic approach, at the entire family structure and making sure that your voice is heard. I wonder if you could elaborate a little on what you mean by “independent voice”, and how you see that working with the current structure we have.

[Jenny Migneault]

I will be honest with you. My answer will be sort of political.

Just remember that last August, families were promised $100 million a year. Do you all remember that, in August? I remember. I was there, at the press conference. Now everybody seems to have forgotten about it.

I say that politically speaking, since caregivers and families are not top priority—which I respect, of course, because we all have to wait our turn, it seems—right now would be a great time and an opportunity to become the world leader when it comes to caregiving. Right now we could think about it collectively, with the right voices.

An independent voice means that you recognize me, not as being a serving member or a wounded veteran. An independent voice means that you believe in me and what I can bring to the well-being of my veteran and my family. I thank Carla for reminding us of the impact on children. It is generations that are suffering.

An independent voice means that you recognize me for what I can bring, and for who I am, and my potential, instead of watching me go down slowly—just as you see with me.