Veterans Affairs Committee on May 10th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Okay.

Mr. Clarke.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Migneault and Madam Murray, thank you very much for being here.

I'm just brainstorming on my question, so I'll try to figure it out. For six months I've been thinking a lot about all the issues for veterans. Last week I think I started to understand something, and what you said today corresponds to this vision that came into my mind. You talked about stopping the circus, blowing it up, and starting from scratch, and then talking about the real issues.

What I've been seeing since the beginning is that there's the stakeholders group and there's the veterans. There are two things.

Also, in terms of what the ministry does, there are also two things, the financial benefits and the services. I think since the new charter of 2006, we are in a paradigm, which is to either create new benefits or increase existing benefits and allowances. That is good, and it had to be done, but it seems to me that this is kind of the circus, because even if it was done under the previous Conservative government—and I was wondering why, when we have all these new benefits, veterans still say we did nothing—I now see this new government following our path and just doing the easy stuff, which is to have new benefits and increase allowances.

I want to talk about the real issue, which might not be the real issue, but I'm trying to find out now.

Madam Murray, you talked about structural flaws in the ministry. I'm wondering if maybe it's not flaws but it's the structural culture of this ministry. I have a straightforward question, because veterans have been talking to me about this. Are you aware of non-official rules that the ministry is imposing on its case managers? I'll listen to you first, please, Madam Murray.

[Carla Murray]

Thank you, because I just phoned Veterans Affairs about that very question. Of course they admit to nothing, but I know that at one time they used to rotate the case managers and the client service workers so you couldn't work with the same person for more than six months. They will not admit to that, it's not on the regs, and apparently they don't do it anymore. But I know it did exist a few years ago. I've been in this system for a lot of years. I've seen it change. It just keeps getting worse.

Think about this; it's a department whose whole reason, or part of it, is to be responsible for veterans with PTSD and they make them fill out paperwork. Do you understand how ridiculous that is, and how structurally wrong that is? I mean, my husband couldn't even write his name for the first four years he was out.

Also, with the doping up they do with all these narcotics and stuff, they get really focused to the point where they can't read, they can't logically think, they can't put things in priority. So to put that paperwork in front of them is an obstacle they can't get over. Most of us women leave because these guys are scary, and there's no support for us at Veterans Affairs. There's no help with the paperwork. It's too much for them to deal with, and I totally understand. Structurally it's broken.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Structurally broke, or maybe structurally they want it to be that way also. That's what I want to find out, actually.

[Carla Murray]

We all wonder. And you're starting to sound like a veteran.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes.

Ms. Migneault, you said you are in part a result of the system as it relates to financial benefits, which are sometimes inadequate. As I said earlier, they are being increased, and that is the easy thing to do, I think.

You are also a result of the system in terms of the way this service is provided and the way you are treated by the department, for example.

I would like you to talk to me about how you are a result of the system and of the way your husband, as an individual, is treated by the department.

[Jenny Migneault]

Listen, there are no words to describe what life is like when you only have a telephone number and you call to say that your husband is not well and needs help, but you are ignored.

There is nothing worse than to call someone and say my husband needs help and not be acknowledged because I'm the spouse.

In Quebec in the past six months, I believe we have more than 12 veterans who committed suicide. The pattern is all the same. They are all men in their forties, fathers of young children, and all abandoned by their wives at some point. Do you know why? The wives are trying. They're trying. When they're military, they go see the padre, they call the chain of command, they go to the MFRC, they go everywhere, they don't have a diagnosis: you're not the serving member, bye-bye.

I'm being told the same thing by Veterans Affairs. My husband saw a psychiatrist from Veterans Affairs for six years and no one ever asked me what was going on in my home. Six years: isn't that enough? I'm nothing—nothing. Don't talk about service delivery to me. I have no service to me, it's all through my husband—case managers, Veterans Affairs: my wife needs to see a psychologist, so the wife goes to see the doctor to have a prescription, the husband gives it, and then we wait. We wait and we wait: “You have 25 sessions, Mrs. Migneault”, and then bye-bye; 15 years with PTSD.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Romanado, and you're going to split with Mr. Eyolfson.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I would first like to thank you, sir, and your wife as well, for your services to our country.

Thank you to Madam Murray as well.

As I mentioned to Madam Migneault, I decided to run for office because I am the mother of two sons currently serving, and I'll tell you, I'm terrified. I'm terrified of what's going to happen to them when they come home. I want to be completely honest with you. Listening to you today, I'm scared. We're talking about service delivery, and we're hearing that there's the system and then there's the delivery. What you're going through is a failure on our part.

I'd like to know if you would be willing to share your expertise in terms of.... We talked a little bit about the transition, but can you tell me if the service or lack thereof that you received actually did more harm than good? I'm worried that we forced you to self-medicate. We forced you into the basement by not giving you the service you needed.

I want to know what we can we be doing to help you to address that, because it seems like it's still going on.

[Jenny Migneault]

Our men and women of this country are victims of the decisions and the treatments they are given, first of all by the Canadian Armed Forces.

Do you want to know something? On April 5, I was invited by the 2nd Division as a privileged guest about mental health. At the end of that meeting, I was asked—and escorted—to shred my personal notes. I am an enemy of the state, being a spouse. This is exactly how we are treated, and this is exactly how you are treated also as a family member.

First of all, thank you, because I know that, from Quebec, you're not being told “thank you” very often. Thank you to your sons, and yes, you should be concerned, because the JPSU is not doing their job right now. As a mother of two sons serving, you should be concerned about what's happening with the JPSU first.

This is the result. We are the follow-up. It is ground zero over there. Acknowledge this.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Carla.

[Carla Murray]

The JPSU didn't exist in my husband's time. It was the SPHL. Being released from the forces back in what I call the “dark days”—I think he got out in 2008—was horrific. SPHL was brought out and the case managers were just kind of feeling their way. It was horrific. I had to do all his paperwork, and nobody—not a case manager, nobody—was going to help me. They almost blocked my way. It was awful.

I wish I could soothe your fears. I told my children that if they went into the military I would disown them, and I'm not joking. I'm not going to watch this again.

I'm sorry, ma'am, but I don't know what to tell you. I'm still living the nightmare. My husband still has PTSD, and I'm alone. I'm dealing with this all by myself.

I have no.... I mean, now we have OSISS for families. We never did before, but now we do, and that's kind of handy, but it's three or four hours away from me. I can pick up the phone, which is nice, which I didn't have before, but my husband was having an episode the other night, and I'm sitting there and I have the two bottles of pills in front of me in case something happens. He's doing great. He's using his tools and he's doing wonderfully, but you don't know, right? Also, we're out in the middle of nowhere. Even our local hospital was closed that weekend. I'm sitting there with those two bottles of pills and watching him, and I'm thinking, “I have no one to call.” I have no psychiatrist. I have no psychologist. We're on our own.

That's been my journey the whole—I'm sorry that I can't swear—way; you know what I was going to say. I survived, and now I try to support other caregivers, but right now in Saskatchewan the veterans are in such desperate need that I advocate for them too. We have to at least get them some help, and then I'll worry about getting the caregivers help.

For me, it's not about the money, but there's a Canadian Air Force $35,000 caregiver allowance that was never offered to me when I had to quit my job and take care of husband when he was in the military. I think that $35,000.... I mean, I don't care if I get the money or not. I'm broke, and I'm never going to be able to work again anyhow, but taking care of my husband works. He's so much better because I'm home and I can intervene before things go bad, right? If he starts getting fixated on something, I distract him with something or we'll go for a walk. I'm good at this now, but this is all self-taught. I don't want women to go through that.

I approached OSISS when I was in Alberta and going through the middle of it in Cold Lake. I approached the OSISS worker there and said that I wanted to start peer support for wives. He said, quote, that “PTSD doesn't exist in the air force”, and he wouldn't even talk to me again. He is now the manager of that district—the manager of that district—so do you want to tell me that things are getting better for veterans? I can quote you in a million ways how they aren't.

I'm sorry, but these guys are blowing smoke up your butts: the Legion, the VAC, the CPAC. You have to get to the truth. I know I'm not supposed to say this, but what have I got to lose? I've been alone the whole way now.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

You need to tell us this. That's the point. That's why we're doing this. I can guarantee you that there's not one person on this committee, regardless of what side of the bench they sit on, that is not supporting you in this regard. I can guarantee you that.

[Carla Murray]

Thank you.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I'm sorry that you have to keep coming back every year to tell this story because we just keep making you do this. We keep making you jump through the same hoops that we've made you do since your husband got ill. It's embarrassing.

We don't make it easy. My colleague Alupa has mentioned to me many times that we put the onus on the veteran to prove that the injury is service-related, versus the onus being on Veterans Affairs to prove that it isn't. We should be—

[Carla Murray]

That has to change. We are carrying the bulk of that burden. They just downloaded their whole job—the paperwork, the finding doctors. Out here we don't have physiotherapists and psychologists in the office. Are you kidding? I heard that, and I went, “Really?” We have nothing. We have a client service worker, a couple of case managers, and an administrator, and they don't like you coming in the office. They help you to the best of their ability, but they have no professionals out here to pull from, whereas you guys in Quebec and Ontario get a totally different Veterans Affairs. We get nothing.

We have to research and find every single benefit. At the beginning, I had to ask the exact right words in order for them to tell me. If I didn't put the words right, they would use it as an excuse not to tell me, for a benefit. I think Veterans might be a bit better now, but not in my experience. I've had to reapply for his rehab and TPI because an abusive case manager took it away.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Is that my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Yes, you're out of time. Sorry.

Mr. Strahl, you have five minutes, and then we'll end with Ms. Mathyssen, with three minutes.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Thank you very much for your testimony here today.

I'm a substitute member of this committee. I'm used to dealing with fisheries issues. I have to tell you that it's a little less intense over there.

I appreciate what you said. I come from Chilliwack, B.C., home of the former CFB Chilliwack, so there are a number of veterans who have come back after their service to settle in my community. I've seen a lot of difficult files.

I will just recount the story of one veteran who has a physical injury. He can't walk without a cane. He's about my age. It was a service injury, a training accident, and he too experienced that delay-and-deny culture. How much worse it must be for the unseen occupational stress injury. If they're not going to acknowledge an ankle that won't work anymore, how are they going to acknowledge mental illness? I think there really is a cultural problem there.

You both mentioned independently access to medical marijuana. I wanted to get some answers from you. The Auditor General just touched on that as well.

Jenny, you mentioned that it was working for your ex-husband, but it was seen as a bit of the dark side that he was self-medicating at the time. When you're in the JPSU you're still a serving member of the Canadian Forces, and that would preclude you, I would assume, from using marijuana of any kind. Am I correct in that?

[Jenny Migneault]

To the best of my knowledge, the Canadian Armed Forces authorizes medical marijuana, but if someone chooses to use it they cannot, for instance, drive a vehicle, etc. The Canadian Armed Forces won't pay for medical marijuana the way Veterans Affairs will.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

So while you're in the JPSU, your 15-year-old is.... Do you have to get it yourself, or are you paying for it out of pocket?

[Jenny Migneault]

You're paying out of pocket, but you can access it through a service provider.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Hope, BC]

Okay. I've heard this as well from veterans who have come into my office, that it is the thing that's working for them.

How is it working for the veteran currently? Is Veterans Affairs starting to change their attitude on it? Obviously, there have been a number of cases. If the Auditor General has flagged it as something that's escalating, what advice do you have for Veterans Affairs, in terms of service delivery—which is what this study is here—in dealing with medical marijuana as it relates to injured veterans?

[Jenny Migneault]

Don't make veterans victims of another war, the pharmaceutical, because with PTSD it's working. The problem is the stigma; the accessibility, of course. And what seems to be a huge matter for Veterans Affairs is that it's not about the money...but I believe it's about the money.