Veterans Affairs Committee on June 7th, 2016

[Gary Walbourne]

I think it's a bit of both. I think the resources are there, but as an example, I talked about Veterans Affairs Canada, Department of National Defence, and SISIP each providing a case manager. Each of those case managers is marching to a different set of orders.

If a member presents himself or herself before one or two of those case managers during transition, the approach to detail and the requirements will be different from each entity. The member struggles through some of it. Once they're inside a small piece of a program, there is good guidance and assistance, but as for someone having that overarching view of the full thing, that doesn't exist.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Then if they are assigned a case manager, let's say, or a pod of people earlier when they're a soldier, that team would carry on with them to kind of bridge that. Is that what you're suggesting?

[Gary Walbourne]

We were talking about this the other day. One of the words we came up with was “concierge” service. What needs to happen is that the soldier needs to have a champion, someone who's assigned to them prior to release, not just at the point of release.

Once the injury happens, they'll go to a temporary medical category where they will be on reduced duties or doing different things. Before they get to a permanent category, if someone is engaged at that point in time, talking to the person about what the future looks like, what their potential opportunities are, it changes the game. It really does.

In my world, the beauty of it is that we do that before the member takes off the uniform, because there are avenues of recourse for the member and other resources they can draw on that won't be available once the uniform comes off. If we did some more work in-house to make sure the member was best prepared to leave, I believe it would go a long way. Having one point of contact to coach someone through that full process would be instrumental in what we're trying to achieve going forward.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Is it fair to say—I think this is what I gathered from your presentation—you believe that in order for Veterans Affairs to stay in the right lane, we need to do the assessment beforehand? Would that be your recommendation?

[Gary Walbourne]

Yes, most definitely, and I understand.... In my office, the first thing I've said to everyone I've dealt with since I've taken over is that collaboration is the best way forward for everybody, but there comes a point in time when there are certain responsibilities in your own lane of authority that need to be addressed.

I think all parties probably need to step back just a step and not rush off the end of the cliff like lemmings. Let's take a pause here for a moment, have a look at what we're doing, and ask if we're doing it correctly.

If we want to go back to how we make it right, Veterans Affairs is there to provide benefits and services to the veteran. I know that now they're doing the adjudication, but I believe that just complicates it. It gives two sets of responsibility to an entity that was intended to do one thing. I think we've complicated it over time. There has been layer on top of layer laid on. I don't think it was anyone's intention that we would get to here, but that's where we find ourselves, so yes, I do believe that.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

From the testimony we've had from some witnesses, I believe that has been a cause of frustration for them, this feeling that their service isn't regarded as important or that their injuries aren't acknowledged. I think that's a good point to make.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Hynes and Mr. Walbourne, for your incredible work. I've had the very good fortune to interact with you and I know that you have been there for veterans and are incredible advocates. I'm very grateful for that.

I have a number of questions. The first is on something very simple. You talked about issues with SISIP, and we've heard that many times. Are there issues that you have identified with the joint personnel support unit, the JPSU, as well?

[Gary Walbourne]

We've done several reviews on the JPSU over the years. I know that when the new Chief of the Defence Staff, General Vance, came in, he took it upon himself as one of his personal goals to get to the bottom of the JPSU, to get it set up and ready to have it functioning to provide that service to the members as required.

My problem with the JPSU would go back to the staffing levels, first and foremost. I have been in this position for a little over two and half years, and I've heard since I've started that we don't have the right numbers of staff on the ground. I found out today that we're still about 30 bodies shy of what the full operational numbers should be. The problem with the full op number is that it was established prior to coming out of Afghanistan, so my question would be, on the number that we've targeted—it was 457, and I think it has increased to 474—is it the right number? If it is, why aren't we doing more to staff more quickly?

I understand that there are competitive salaries across the country. These things need to be addressed, but it's not as if we found out about this today. We've known it for several years. That's my concern with the JPSU.

I know that General Vance has put a lot of effort into the organization and how it's going to be structured. There are going to be some responsibilities that devolve back down to the local chains of command. I think that's probably a good thing in order to help them have flexibility on the ground and to adapt. I reserve final comment until I see what the end result is going to be and until we're fully staffed and have done an environmental assessment to ensure that the right case management ratio is in place and people are moving through the system at the pace they need to.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's always remarkable to me that in going off to fight, money is no issue, but there is no consideration for the aftermath. We are dealing very directly with the aftermath of those decisions, and we had better be there to make sure the supports are in place.

That brings me to issues around injured reservists and particularly to suicide rates. We hear more and more about suicide rates among released veterans and about folks even within DND who are not adapting and are not able to find the help they need. On these statistics, do you have any comment on the number of suicides and where we are failing these veterans or CF members?

[Gary Walbourne]

I don't have much insight on the numbers. I have the same awareness that you have.

If we want to talk about helping veterans, I would say this: I don't know if any of us has a solution to prevent suicide, but I do believe we have the opportunity to remove as many obstacles in the environment as possible. For example, I know it's always the ugly thing to talk about, but let's talk about money. The calls I receive at my desk are not about not getting their medication last week, but about how they'll make their mortgage next month or how they'll get their kids to school.

If you take someone, especially with operational stress injuries, and you haven't given them a solid platform to step on prior to letting them take off the uniform, I think you're not helping the situation. What needs to happen is that the member who is releasing because of this type of malady is sure, before the uniform comes off, that everything they require is in place. They know when their earnings loss benefit or pension cheque will be in the bank. They know who their doctor will be. They know what their service benefit will look like.

We can do that. We have the ability to do that. It will take some leadership and desire to get it changed, but I do believe our job is to remove as many obstacles as possible in the path of these releasing members so that we can help reduce that number.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

We've talked a great deal about supports for the families and how families very often feel on the margins. All focus is on the veteran or the CF retiring member, and the family is on the periphery. Obviously that family needs support. Have you recommendations?

I'm very excited about the work on the new delivery model that you have done and will make available to this committee. Have you any comments on how we can make sure that the family is in the picture and is supported so that they can support the veteran?

As a corollary to that, what about veterans who don't have family support? Has there been enough consideration given to them?

[Gary Walbourne]

When we talk about families, for me, families are a part of my constituency base. All members and their families, all former members and their families, all former cadets and their families—they're a large part of my constituency base and always of concern.

The issue with families, for me, is that we hear all the time that we should do everything for the soldier and families, but what are we actually going to do for families?

There are programs available in Veterans Affairs Canada that help families somewhat. There is some respite care; I think they're entitled to a couple of weeks. What you have to understand, though, is that when a member is dealing with an operational stress injury, we see it for eight hours a day. The family sees it for the rest of the day. Anything wrong or bad that's going to happen to that member will first be felt on the home front, so why don't we allow families access to the clinics, where there are counsellors available that can talk to the families? Do we give them enough information and education?

We have tried, through our small little entity, to publish as much information as we can on our website, to make it as accessible as possible, but I believe we can do more. In Veterans Affairs Canada, if there's a caregiver taking care of a veteran, that caregiver is given a wage. If a family member is doing it, it's not the same thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have about 20 seconds left.

[Gary Walbourne]

To answer your question, families need more, but we need to think about what we want to do for the families and not just keep saying “and families”.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

So there's all this shovelling off of stuff without that clear consideration of the model we need to use.

[Gary Walbourne]

Exactly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Eyolfson is next.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming, and thank you for the work you're doing. It's quite valuable and it's appreciated.

You were talking about case managers and how there's a different case manager at every step of the process. Would it be beneficial if they were assigned a case manager while in service, once you determined that termination of service was imminent, and they just retained that same case manager throughout the process and while they were in Veterans Affairs? Is there a model you can envision where that would be the case?

[Gary Walbourne]

That's exactly the model we're headed toward. We believe that when the member receives his temporary medical category, an assessment should be done on whether there is an opportunity for that member to return to work or if they are going to be released.

Contrary to what we may hear in the media, the Canadian Armed Forces, in my opinion, do an extremely good job with injured members. They stay with them throughout the process and they don't release them until they have a plan in place to go forward with their medical care, so kudos to the Canadian Armed Forces. Good job. Well done. The point is that as we change from program to benefit to service, there is a different set of rules and regulations and knowledge that you need.

You are exactly right that having one point from when the first determination is made through until the end, when the member is out and is receiving his benefits and services and his life is starting to move forward, is absolutely critical in the process. If we take operational stress injuries as an example, they can manifest themselves in many ways. Chaos and confusion do not help anyone who is suffering from that type of malady. To have a constant in your life throughout that process is absolutely critical, in my opinion.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

We've heard some people say that their case managers seem to feel very overloaded. Part of that is the ratio of case managers to clients. Have you found that case managers are doing a lot of tasks that could be reassigned? There's clerical work and there are things that are not related to what they're supposed to be doing, but there's no one else to do it. There's paperwork and that sort of thing. Is that increasing the workload of the case managers?

[Gary Walbourne]

That's part of the issue. For example, if I could step back to the JPSU, Robyn has the actual numbers here, but we're about 30 positions shy.

I think it's 23 case managers...?

[Robyn Hynes, Director General, Operations, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman]

It's 27.

[Gary Walbourne]

That's 27 nurse case managers, but there are also seven clerical positions that are empty. Those clerical positions are the oil that make the machine work.

For every case manager I've had the opportunity to speak with, I have to say that without exception they are tremendous people, with empathy for what they're doing. I've seen case managers come back into the office at nine or 10 o'clock at night just to get things done.

Therefore, yes, that's probably contributing to the fact.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

In regard to the positions open and who could do this kind of work, we've said that veterans themselves are quite overwhelmed with the sheer volume and complexity of the paperwork, and we are short of some of these positions to help with some of it. Would there be a role for hiring veterans who are familiar with the service to help with this kind of task? Would that be a good employment opportunity for some veterans who are looking for work?