Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 6th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Good afternoon, everybody. I'd like to call the meeting to order. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), and motion adopted on February 25, the committee resumes its study of service delivery to veterans. The last hour will be committed to committee business.

Today we have the first round of witnesses. We have from National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman, Robyn Hynes, director general of operations; and Gary Walbourne, ombudsman.

We'll start with the opening statement of up to 10 minutes, and we'll turn the floor over to our witnesses.

Thanks for coming.

[Gary Walbourne, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good afternoon to all.

It's my understanding that this committee has taken great interest in the two recent reports I have released, “Determining Service Attribution for Medically Releasing Members” and “Simplifying the Service Delivery Model for Medically Releasing Members”. Both reports contain recommendations to the Minister of National Defence, and I have been invited here to speak to them today.

Our military personnel from across the country have voiced their concerns over a number of critical issues related to their service from recruitment through to retirement, but none more frequently than those pertaining to the subject of transition between military and civilian life.

Every year, over 50% of the complaints that come to my office have to deal with this very issue. Whether they are releasing from the Canadian Armed Forces for medical reasons or non-medical reasons, what they face is a complex system that I believe needs to be fundamentally changed. Tack on the additional administrative burden of applying for benefits and services at Veterans Affairs Canada, and I think we have reached a tipping point for our members.

From our engagements with the men and women in uniform across the country on issues surrounding medical release from the Armed Forces, my office has produced a number of reports containing evidence-based recommendations aimed at solving these issues. Our reports are a call to action.

I believe that the government has a tremendous opportunity to fix the system that too often allows vulnerable people to slip through the cracks. We have provided plenty of evidence supporting the need for real change in key areas. We do not need to commission more studies. We need decisions.

Some of the decisions that need to be made may not be popular and some may not be as politically palatable as we would like, but they are the right ones for the men and women who serve or have served this country.

I can assure you that many of the tragic circumstances that occur in your constituencies and that often reach national public attention can be avoided.

I'd like to summarize for you today what I have recommended to help protect the members of the Canadian Armed Forces from undue hardship. There is a fundamental disconnect between the Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada wherein a member must navigate departure from one before entrance into the other. Most of this has to do with the determination of attribution of service and the current service delivery model.

On May 18, I delivered a report to the Minister of National Defence in which I recommended that the Canadian Armed Forces determine whether an illness or injury was caused or aggravated by a military service and that the determination be presumed by Veteran Affairs Canada to be sufficient evidence in support of an application for service or benefits. I made this report public on September 13 and copies have been provided to the committee.

In conducting their adjudications under the new Veterans Charter, Veterans Affairs Canada as the administrator considers mostly documentary evidence generated by the Canadian Armed Forces. The evidence consists largely of the member's medical records and possibly other career-related records. This begs the question of why a protracted bureaucratic process is required for VAC to review records prepared by the Canadian Armed Forces when it is possible for the Canadian Armed Forces to determine whether a medically releasing member's condition is related to or aggravated by military service.

Given that the Canadian Armed Forces has control of the member's career and has responsibility for the member's medical health throughout their career, such a determination can and should be presumed to be evidence in support of a member's application for VAC benefits.

I believe that my recommendation of having the Canadian Armed Forces determine service attribution in conjunction with the change to the service delivery model would reduce wait times by 50% or more on the current 16-week service delivery standard. This standard does not include the time it takes to get medical records from the Canadian Armed Forces or if the member has to submit any other pertinent documents.

You may think that the development of a new service delivery model would require intensive study that would take months or even years to complete. On August 12, I submitted a report to the Minister of National Defence containing a potential new service delivery model. I made the report public last week. Again, copies have been provided for the committee.

My report recommends that the Canadian Armed Forces retain medically releasing members until all benefits and services, including Veteran Affairs, have been finalized and put in place prior to releases; that one point of contact be established—if you will, a concierge service—for all medically releasing members to assist in their transition; and that the Canadian Armed Forces develop a tool that is capable of providing members with information so that they can understand their potential benefit suite prior to release.

These are three strong, evidence-based, member-centric recommendations, ladies and gentlemen, that I believe are game-changers.

My three recommendations do not require new legislation, nor do they require the implementation of my recommendations surrounding attribution of service. I know that they are closely aligned, and anything we will do further would be enhanced by the Canadian Armed Forces' determination of attribution to service.

As we all know from their mandate letters made public, the Prime Minister has asked the ministers of Veterans Affairs and National Defence to reduce complexity, overhaul service delivery, and strengthen the partnership between the two. Both ministers and the chief of the defence staff have publicly acknowledged that the system needs fixing. The time is no longer to study, but to fix.

On Monday, it was reported that Veterans Affairs Canada has a backlog of 11,500 applications for benefits and services. I strongly believe implementing my recommendations to have the Canadian Armed Forces determine attribution of service and to restructure its service delivery model to ensure that no member is released before all benefits from the CAF and VAC are in place would greatly reduce the complexity leading to those delays.

As you may know, I spent nearly four years as deputy veterans ombudsman. I can tell you there has always been a backlog at Veterans Affairs Canada, and the size varies over the year. It still numbers in the thousands. Even when operating cuts were made to the department, the numbers did not change in any significant way.

Ladies and gentlemen, that indicates to me that this is a process issue, not a people issue. I am not recommending patchwork. I am recommending a fundamental shift in the way business is done. The Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs are currently exploring options to close the seam. By having the Canadian Armed Forces implement my recommendations to take care of the members at the front end, Veterans Affairs will have a simplified environment in which to do its important work.

Ladies and gentlemen, I firmly believe we are at an opportune moment for the members of the Canadian Armed Forces and veterans in this country. There is a large contingent of veterans groups in Ottawa this week participating in the Veterans Affairs stakeholder summit, which wrapped up today. I attended as an observer. I had a chance to catch up with many of the leaders in the veteran community, and I can tell you both reports were received very positively. Many of them wished that my recommendations had been implemented when they were releasing, and their hope now is that they will be implemented for those releasing in the future.

The common theme from my engagements with these groups this week has been a need to fundamentally change the current service delivery on both the Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs sides, and I couldn't agree more. I believe my recommendations offer the government a path forward. Our people should be our top priority, our true no-fail issue and, as they say, it's go time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I stand ready for questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

We'll start out with six minutes. Ms. Wagantall.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Your first recommendation indicates that members shouldn't be released until all benefits from all sources, including Veterans Affairs, have been finalized and put into place.

By the way, I think this is a very encouraging report.

We've heard in the committee a little bit about the challenge, that a lot of times a veteran's needs develop over time. How does that fit into the idea of everything being in place before they're released?

[Gary Walbourne]

There are two things, if I may. First of all, there will always be those who late manifest, especially with operational stress injuries. There will always be a need for Veterans Affairs Canada and the adjudication process they have. People can show up with an operational stress injury six months, six years, 10 years beyond the fact. Even physical maladies that can be attributed to military service can manifest themselves later in life. But I'm saying the bulk of what we're doing now, currently, if we start the process today, those who are medically releasing and we know they're going to be medically releasing and we know what the malady is, we can do the determination of attribution of service and that file will move very quickly and smoothly through Veterans Affairs Canada, allowing them additional time to deal with the more complex.

At the stakeholder summit this week, I heard some very encouraging talk from both the chief of the defence staff and the deputy chief of military personnel command. The two things I heard were there is now a thought process along the lines of not releasing members until everything is in place for them, and this morning I heard the deputy chief of military personnel command say they are going to introduce a concierge service. I'm extremely optimistic about what I'm hearing. I do believe there is merit in what we're talking about, and I think the command has also seen the merit and is starting to look toward that.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

That's excellent.

Clearly then, if we're saying all of this should be in place prior to release, will this extend the amount of time members remain on the payroll with the Armed Forces, do you think?

[Gary Walbourne]

It's possible in some cases there would be an extension. If we look at some of the issues we know that have been in the media of late, such as the delay in getting a pension, that's a processing issue. I think if anyone from the department were here, they would tell you that the pension cell the people were put in, they were taken out, they were put in, they were taken out...we have a backlog.

I know the chief of the defence staff is attacking that now, but we need to get that backlog cleaned up and have a process in place that generates that pension allotment much quicker. Sometimes cost drives performance. I think if we start to see overruns on the salary and wage envelope, someone will bring attention to bear. Maybe there's a small cost up front, until we get the systems in place, but I do believe the process will be more efficient and effective going forward.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

In lines 132 to 134 of your opening remarks, it says that no member is released before all benefits from the CAF and VAC are in place, so both VAC and CAF would have to agree that “now is the time.”

I'm trying to envision it. Would both sides sign off and say, “Okay, we both agree that everything is in place,” and go forward from there? Is it the Canadian Armed Forces that would decide, “Okay, we're ready”, and pass the member on to VAC, or is there an interaction and an agreement between the two that a soldier is ready to do that transition?

[Gary Walbourne]

It would have to be an agreement between the two. Veterans Affairs Canada would have to be ready to receive and the Canadian Armed Forces would have to ensure that everything was in place from their perspective to release the member.

Each case is going to be unique. That's why we've recommended a concierge service. For every malady, though it may be similar, the manifestation to the person is completely different. Their needs may be different. We could have a similar malady but our needs may be different. That's why I'm saying the concierge service is a personalized service that takes each one of these medically released members through to the end and not a projected end.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

There's also the issue of family. We've heard a lot about the challenge of the spouse going through this process and also the need for the family to have care. At this point what I'm seeing, I believe, is there to deal with the veteran.

[Gary Walbourne]

To deal with the releasing member.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

The releasing member, sorry, yes.

[Gary Walbourne]

At the stakeholder summit that I spent two days at, there was a lot of talk about how to get families involved. I have seen some very encouraging things over the last couple of days about how to get families involved and how to give them access so that they are considered to be part of it.

When we talk about releasing a member, it's not only the member who can physically walk out the door or be led out the door, there's also a family extension that needs to be considered. Something as simple as, “Do I have an income?” is very important to a family. Those things would have to be considered. The families' needs need to be considered in what we're doing, going forward.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Am I hearing “prior to the release”?

[Gary Walbourne]

Yes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, thank you. I appreciate it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Fraser.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much for being here and for your presentation.

On the concierge service, I just want to hear a little more about what that means and what it actually looks like on the ground for releasing members. I believe you're absolutely right. It would be beneficial to have one person, one point of contact, to deal with the releasing member and to ensure that they always know who is helping them out on a certain issue. Could you explain what you mean by a concierge service?

[Gary Walbourne]

It's basically exactly that, sir. I think that first and foremost, there would be one person the releasing member could go to if they had any questions about whatever service or benefit they were applying for, to help them with that application process, and to make sure that they were ready to move forward. But it's more than that. The concierge is not just going to do that up front and then go away from the person. They would continue to be connected with that person until he or she finds himself or herself where he or she needs to be. That's the service that would be offered.

The chief of the defence staff yesterday in his speech, although he never gave us any exact details, was very encouraging when he started talking about there should be a concierge face, one person for the member to talk to. Everything else would be done behind the door. The member wouldn't see it. It would be painless, seamless to the member. Any direction that the member needs would be handled by the concierge. That's not verbatim what the chief of the defence staff said, but it's similar to what he said. I think he has the right concept.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I presume that you would want it to be easy to contact that concierge person directly, perhaps through email, perhaps through a direct line to the individual who would be helping the releasing member.

[Gary Walbourne]

Most definitely. I not only want to see the member have one place to reach out to, but I also want that concierge to be reaching out to the member over time: “If I haven't heard from you in a week.... Let's just touch base to see where you are. Did you get to your appointments? Have you made your rendezvous, or wherever you're supposed to be?” It's a bit more than just helping them with the application and then it's over. It about making sure that they get to their destination.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Do you have an idea of how many releasing members one concierge would be helping at a time? What are your thoughts on that?

[Gary Walbourne]

We put in the report that there should be no more than a 25:1 ratio. The concierge is the face that the person sees. He's not the person who delivers all the services, but he knows who to reach out to. We're saying 25:1 should be the maximum ratio.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Okay.

With regard to all the benefits and services in place before the person is released, one of the things we've heard often is that a releasing member has to tell their story over and over. I agree with you on the concierge idea. It would help alleviate that problem, but do you agree that having all of these things in place—the benefits, the services—before they're released would alleviate that problem, too?

[Gary Walbourne]

Most definitely. It's probably the ugly thing to talk about, but one of the pillars we have to give these releasing members is a financial security pillar, one that they can stand on and one so that they can go to their families and say, “I got this. We're going to be okay.” I do believe, yes, it would help all of those things.